Discussion about the actual resale value of a Pro-touring car
 

First off everyone knows that it costs more to build these cars then it does to just purchase one from some one else done. I see alot of guys sell pretty nice cars from 60k to 100k. That cost 2 - 4 times the amount they recoup. But my questions is what are the elements people look for at different price ranges?

With a 30-45K camaro, it would be pretty stock suspension, older paint but still nice, But very reliable, probably small block, or big block or LS1 but not done super nice under hood with an LS.

45-60K camaro would have and LS engine modern billet wheels, probably an LS engine, with possibly aftermarket suspension, Nice new paint but not show stopping perfect.

60-100k - Definitely after market suspension, probably LS7 or higher, mini tubbed, high end detailed interior. Possibly lots of professional quality work.

My questions, Does one suspension MFG command more resale value over another? Does the high resale value make it worth the added cost and possibly labor to install?

How much more money is a car worth that has great stance?

Do mini tubbed cars command enough money to pay for the additional labor expense on a street car? Or does the matter more when the car has bigger horsepower?

Does say an LS9 command alot more money then say an LSA? Or even more if it was a high end builder like Kurt Urban, Mast, Wegner?

What is the ideal platform to make money on in the Gas Monkey Garage kinda builds that are built for resale? Camaro..... Obviously rust free is an obvious first start.

Just wondering.

If you're just looking to build a car to sell, the main goal should be investing money in features and attributes that are attractive to the broadest group of people possible.

Features like a well engineered suspension, and heavily modified interior or exterior may be worth a lot of money to the right people. However, the added cost of those elements will probably deter the vast majority of people who are just looking for a cool car.

So I think if you distill a pro-touring car down to it's essential pieces, you would end up with the following:

• RELIABILITY
• minitubs
• "nice" wheels and tires
• a decent set of disc brakes
• "finished" engine bay
• proper stance
• LS motor (I'd say for highest profit margin a stock LS2 with a mild cam)
• stock interior
• stock exterior

I'd price out a full RideTech set up, bigger brakes, a set of Rushforths with tires and a fuel injected crate motor with OD trans. and see what I had left. Let's say that all comes to around 30k.

Can you find a nice Camaro with good paint and nice interior for 15-20k? Then, could you sell if for more than 60k?

Making 10-15k on a build sounds good but if the bills are getting paid and you were making 2-5k is that enough?

I know lots of people have money but I think the realistic magic number for a guy getting into the "look" is 45-50k. Let's face it, most guys want the look and will never track the car.

Great topic
:thumbsup:
Dan

Lol. Better post pics of that thing on a trailer tomorrow.

JCG should be able to build that for you no problem.

Sometimes the things that sell the car are the little details that in the greater picture didn't really cost much to do.

Hose and harness placement.
The way the car sits.
No funky noises when driving.
Isn't a pain to drive.
Over all fitment and cleanliness.

neat and tidy sell.

As far as resale? I'd rather build and sell 10 $30K cars than 1 @ $90-100K build car. Its easier to over deliver on a camaro in the $30K range

This is a great topic and I'm very glad someone brought this up. I have what I consider a budget build. (Nice paint, good interior, sbc 500+ hp, overdrive, big brakes, Boze wheels, hotchkis suspension, AC and stereo system). I have seen cars like mine go for like 75k and I think that's just nuts. Personally I think something like this should be 30-50 depending on the finish.

Not to bring anyone up but there was a sweet blue camaro, minitubbed, nice wide wheels, Ls high hp, nice interior going for 55k. I think it was priced right for any buyer.

I think the name on the parts helps sell the car but not always at a higher price.
Sorta like having a pool in your backyard doesn't add value to your house but might help it sell to the right buyer over another similar house in the neighborhood. (talking about regular pools, not Rodger pools...)




Jeff-

And the new owner was pretty happy with the car :)

I priced it accordingly to what I thought the market would bare for that type of car in that condition with those parts...etc...etc... As I'm sure you know, asking price isn't what you always end up with.

There are 2 buyers for Pro-touring cars I have found. The educated buyer that knows what he wants and the uneducated buyer that wants the look like but doesn't know what to look for. I don't think there is any rhyme or reason to price as I have seen RS cars sell cheap at Barrett and have seen a buddy of mine get 74k out of a 69 with noting more than mini tubs, billet goodies, LS1, and a set of Rushforths on it. I think too much personalization is a kiss of death to resale value. I'm not knocking RS in any way, I LOVE their work and style. I also believe certain parts do add value just like hardwood floors and granite tops add value to your home, but I also think you can do too much and narrow your prospective buyer pool down where it might be hard to sell the car.

Hellfire will bring top dollar.... BirdNest.... not so much. LOL

Now I know why said person is clearing his stable.. That or the futureliner.

So take this one for example.

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/cto/4685754768.html

Assuming you don't touch the paint and the interior is good. Talk him down to 18k.

Add fuel injection and an OD trans
RideTech bolt ons
Same rims, new tires to match the new height

Nice vintage muscle that looks and drives better than new, nothing crazy and can be put back to stock. Average dude at the local XXX having fun and getting the looks.

What's it worth?

....and that's why mine will never be for sale. Other than some unforseen family emergency, uhhh...nope. But now, like Mike mentioned, if an uneducated buyer just has to have it and offers me some stupid, ridiculous amount of money, it'll never be for sale.

Thats a lot of questions, but a couple of obvious points stick out. I think your prices are on the high end. A mostly stock suspension nice good small block car isn't in the $30k-$45k range. I listed my 67 about a year ago, and it was a helluva lot nicer than that description and got real offers in the high-mid twenties. I decided to keep it for now.

You are a shop so I assume you are looking primarily at how to make money from your last question, ie the GMG type builds for resale. My opinion from watching the for sale ads for a while and trying to sell my car is that the money is ALL in negotiating a cheap buy, and working the advertising on the sale. Not to mention you can't believe anything you see on TV, especially buy /sell amounts. The car in the craigslist ad a couple of posts up is a perfect example. Probably a 20 footer, 4wheel drum, with a little rust hiding. Selling a personal car is a huge pain in the ass, and the money is in watching it for a while, pointing out the flaws and then lowballing. People get so tired of dealing with crackpots, they often take the money to end the misery.

Your problem as a shop is that the your reputation rides on every sale, unless you want GMG's hack reputation:lol: .

Neat topic.

I agree with MuscleRodz, in that there are different types of buyers.
If I was not in the business, but had similar knowledge that I do currently about pro-touring cars, I would care about the suspension, brakes, engine, and how good the bodywork was. I feel this would be the same for any pro-touring educated individual.

Now, talking about the average guy who doesn't know about the pro-touring world, "oh man.. this thing has 4 wheel discs?? AND a 383??? SOLD" ;)

As the pro-touring trend grows, (and economy gets better) I do believe that the 100k cars will sell better, but it seems like right now it's still not to the full potential.

It's just like building a house.. basically the same principles apply. I would pay a little more for a house that had been outfitted with 220v for welders and lifts, compared to a Joe Schmoe who plugs his 1hp air compressor in to fill up his lawn mower tires.. because he doesn't have a use or desire for 220.

In my personal opinion, I don't think resale value should matter all that much if you're building a car, as long as its your car and you love it because it was built to your specification. If they're quick flips where little to no bodywork is required, that's ok.. but 95% of the cars we've had through here have had a rough history in one way or another.. which ends up costing the end user more money since they're doing a full build & don't want to skimp on something that matters in the long run.

-Dale

Hey, no need to get personal and make fun of us guys. Besides, mines is a 3 HP. :poke: :poke:

Actual Resale of a Pro Touring car? Way less than the owner's blinders can let him see. I always like to see the for sale threads and all the comments about what a steal it is at that price. They just aren't the buyer.

I think my car and Max's are a good litmus for the hobby. His sold for around 50k mine sold for $87,500. Which now seems like a big number to me.

I think loud colors like red and orange, nice wheels, right stance with economic parts, attention to detail, and not to personalized for max profit. A car in the 30-50k range has the largest pool of buyers that are more likely to buy off emotion and impulse.

Like has been said here many time actual build cost can be vary a lot. I'm just curious the add items that bring the most money on the block? I'm not really talking about the super duper over the top half million dollar cars built that are usually build for certain awards. I'm more talking about nice driver cars with some accessories. Not the cars built per spec to what the owner wants, everyone knows you can buy a car close to what you want for way cheaper then having a car built.






This has been a topic of discussion in my world lately.

Rodger are you looking at buying and flipping less expensive cars or is it just a discussion?

I've always done well buying beaters. A little clean up and detailing, some tuning so they can be driven daily and then make them sit right. The guys that buy em know they aren't perfect but feel like they are getting into something they can improve on. Win win.

You're in a position that if you had a driver condition solid rig that sat right, more people would see it. Your selling a dream to a future customer, he's now part of the cool kid club without going broke...yet. We did this at the shop I worked at years ago, we always had a shop bike, car or truck that was for sale. Used for parts runs, grabbing lunch or going to local shows....always made good money and most the time a new customer.

Do you have a good amount of traffic buy the shop?

Dan

I was told by someone I know who sells quite a few classic/muscle cars every month that the money is in buying nice clean cars, adding wheels and lowering springs along with engine bay and trunk detailing etc. Once you start making the sort of changes wanted by members of this forum it gets a lot tougher to make money.

Don

Making money on cars is all made on the BUY side....


I agree with Don... you can't make money on cars building them to be real cars. There's just nothing left in 'em.

I have just seen a lot of nice deals lately that are begging to make some money on. I understand the cheaper it is the wider the market in some respects, but also narrows the market as some guys want nicer stuff. M6 business is just focused around selling hours which means you want to get paid for all the hours you flag, ideally. But also finding guys to build cheaper well built bolt together kinda cars is a lot simpler then guys who can do high end fab. So just looking at options to grow the business.

And just think about a side of the business I have not really looked at before.

X3 on the buy side.

I haven't been to Bakersfield in awhile and don't know anything about the PT scene. You being a hot rod shop could very easily get into the 50's and 60's cruiser scene. More of a following I would think, plenty of people out there that want an old car but may not have the ability to make it happen.

Last car I flipped (besides the sweet mustang II) was a 66 galaxie. Cleaned it up, rebuilt the carb., fixed a few minor things, lowered with black steel wheels and skinny whites. The kid that bought it thought it was the coolest and just wanted to be bombing around in something old. After everything, I made $1500 and got a real nice S&W 915, not a ton of money but it paid for me to play with an old car and I have a new firearm now.

You've got the shop, the talent and a frickin car hauler.....just do it! What's the worst that can happen?

Because I really don't know. What was your shop like before you got into the magazines and had the semi? Has it always been full build high end stuff?

For the most part we have just gotten better with everyday. But the biggest difference is to know how to spot customers that do not understand how much effort it might take to accomplish what they want. I try to talk every new customer into buying a car before even thinking about building one. The build cost adds up so fast I can't even believe it. So learning how to educate new customers and just working with our repeat customers is our main focus. A business has to make money or it's just a tax shelter for some rich guy. Well it's just me trying to support my family and pay my guys as much as I can so they can do the same. After almost 15 years in business a guy better learn some things to improve on.

I have gotten a lot smarter in the past few years. If it does not make money, create business or make my customers happy I sold it.

I'm asking this question to research another possible revenue stream possibility.

I think there's a market for a quality car that's safe, sorted out, and fun to drive that isn't $100K+. The biggest problem is duplicating that price point when all the donor cars will have completely different needs to get them to that point.

Rust and parts availability will be the biggest hurdles.

Exactly. I was thinking of this years ago, but couldn't figure out how to deal with the pricing, when the starting point can (and will) be so different.

When I used to be on the Corvette forum regularly I noticed that there were guys building and selling high dollar C1 and C2 restomod cars. New frames, LS engines, nice leather interiors and they could sell for quite good money. There seems to be a decent sized pool of buyers for these cars. Might be something worth researching.

Don

Yep, depends on your core clients and demand. The over seas market has been big. But who knows when the big bubble will hit again and demand drops.

Since oil and fuel prices has dropped I have noticed an increase is classic car interest. From 10 calls to 25-30 calls a day since August.

You simply can't make money building PT cars and selling them. The labor and parts always exceeds the cars value. The uneducated always see the outside and don't consider what these cars actually cost.

I'm trying to sell my 1978 Camaro, Highly modded LS engine, Modded TKO, Moser rear, Hotchkis suspension etc..etc. Basically everything short of a new frame and a 4 link. I would say with parts and labor over the years, easy exceeds $25K with me doing most of the work. I have been asking $18K and someone offered me $8K stating "its just a 78 Camaro" they are not worth much. :hairpullout:

I can yank the engine the transmission out right now and get close to $8K for it. The uneducated doesn't see a $10K drivetrain, a $2000 rear end, $2000 suspension, $1500 FI fuel tank, and the $1500 new interior. Your buying the parts and basically getting a free car! I really think that's how most people see these cars and that's what makes them tough to sell at reasonable prices.

Try finding a 11 sec Camaro that gets 20mpg with an interior and handles the corner for $8K

If it were a 69 Camaro it would have been gone along time ago. Have to move what sells and is in demand.

Im with Vince on this one, even if it was a 70-73 it would most likely bring the number your asking. Not trying to offened you but it is a "78 Camaro". Theres a ton out there for nothing, yes their junk so thats why people think yours is only worth 8K because it's nice.

I get what you are saying about the parts and I agree most dont get what it cost to build these cars just in parts. They look a ebay and see an LS with 6sp for
4-5K and dont have a clue that you need a couple more grand to make it run in an old car.

I do agree that trying to build "Pro-Touring" cars to make money is not the best idea, i think building more main stream Hot Rods would go over much better? First Gen Camaros for sure but more restomods or just hotrod then our stuff??



E

This is an interesting topic. The reality is that nobody, informed or not, even wants to look under a car, regardless of what they pretend to find "interesting."

As an example, while I avoid car shows like the plague (they piss me off, as they're potential, not kinetic), the occasional one I do attend will almost never include someone other than myself who looks under cars. Same goes for the autocrosses and track days I've been to. You've got tons of great performing cars (most of which also look pretty cool), and people who think they're great, but does their curiosity ever extend to seeing what the hell is making it work? Nope.

What sells is paint. Open the hood and show somebody a fuel injection; it does not matter if it's an LS or a TPI from an IROC. Put some PT-style wheels on, and you're golden.

That's mostly the reason why the LS is going in my 70, and the rest will be parted out. I can make some reasonable money that way. A 1970-73 Camaro in the condition of my 78 I feel could sell easily for $30K, but I guess in another 20 years, it might be there.


BTW, I really like the 1st gens, but I will never own one because they are just so common.

I don't think most people don't fix up a 1st Gen because they're "common" I think it's more there price. It's an iconic car just like an early mustang. To buy a first Gen camaro in poor condition is still going to eat up a lot of most people's budget. It's easier to find a less desirable car and fix up and put money into go fast parts.

But the downside to that is you have a less desirable car with expensive parts that's less likely to sell,case in point the 78 camaro with 18k in parts in post 32.

For 18-25k I'd rather find my own 78 Camaro if that's what I really wanted and put my own twist on it and not buy someone else vision. Less desirable build/car = loose money on the build or keep it.

No, that's why I don't want one. People like certain cars for their own reasons.

A car built with my vision is no different than any other car. That's why I bought my '70 totally stock versus one already done.

I have only seen one on the street in the past year

When I was in the market for my 69 and 78 I just wanted something that didnt need paint work or extensive metal. They need metal here and there but its in places that I wont have to repaint the exterior and I can do myself. Pretty much start with a solid stock car, I can spend my time and money doing fun stuff like engine, suspension, brakes.

In the long run it might cost a little more doing it my way but I can use the exact parts I want instead of buying someone else's car.

Its all about what someone is willing to pay. I have seen amazing deals sit for months because they were a weird color or something.