Shop situation??? Advice please.
 

Hello everyone have a dilemma and need some help!
I took my vehicle out of state to have a few things buttoned up that I did not have time to complete myself! I met with the shop owner and we went over what I needed complete and told him what my budget was. We agreed on monthly statements and was told I could access the build progress on line. I was also told he was going to send me a list of things we had discussed.
Well, one month went by, I called and asked about progress and an invoice, I was sent a few pictures in a text and was told they didn't really work on the car much to produce an invoice. The next few months I tried to meet up with him but he was either busy or out of town racing and couldn't really get together. Had him do a mock up for a part he needed me to purchase. We kept in touch over the months a few questions on my overall plan for the car questions about items I need to order. Six months later I finally receive six invoices all at once, And around 116 progress photos. And also a bill for almost double my budget without any one item fully complete. And over 2/3 of the invoices were labor charges. Up until now I have not paid any amount of money.

Now when I talked to the shop Owner and tried to ask why I was being charged an hourly rate instead of my budget. I was told that he does not remember talking about a "budget". And was also informed that a new shop manager was brought on and that I should talk to him. So I called the shop manager and he was told to send out the invoices and that he really knew nothing about the agreement I had with the shop owner. This is why I wanted monthly invoices as to what was complete. After looking over the invoices I just got , I noticed that 2 months after the initial meeting I had already burned through 2/3 of my budget. I still had 4 more invoices to look at. I need ADVICE where did I go wrong? What's next? How can I get my car back?

I would start gathering all the documentation you have and contact an attorney. If there is no written agreement or estimate then he doesn't have any proof that you agreed to allow work to be started on the car and you may be able to pull it from the shop without paying. You will have to check with local law enforcement on that one. The last thing you want is to be in a battle with a place like that and have your car trapped there.

Where you went wrong was not getting everything in a written agreement that was reviewed by an attorney. It would be great if we cold trust everyone these days, but there are just to many scammers out there. It's really messed up, because it ruins things for the good people and shops.

Sorry I don't have any solid advice to offer you. Good luck.

So you sent your car there to be worked on and never paid any money? No deposit?

Did you atleast sign an electronic repair order? Agree to prices via email? Text?

rip off
 

Some guys just have terrible luck ... It's a shame that I consider myself 'lucky' to have not suffered the same fate as some of the folks here, and a buddy of mine ...

He just paid $8,000 to have a BBC built by a 'reputable' shop here in Toronto, and promised 700 crank HP. 1st problem, WRONG timing cover left a gap so the filled it with silicone so it blew on his drive home and near emptied the engine of oil. Their response ... fill it with more silicone. 2nd problem, gets it on the dyno only to put down 375 hp at the wheels ... then scoped the the pistons to find out they were flat top and running at 8.5:1 CR ... REALLY ??

WTF is going on these day ????? It makes me sick to my stomach that guys are getting away with this sh$%&%t !!

Steve

My advice to you is pay the invoices and pull the car. Once you get lawyers involved you will likely only increase your losses. Next time a formal contract would be good idea.

Make sure to leave feedback on the forums after you get the car back.

Don

^^ I agree. Pay the bill asap and get your car out of there asap! Also send them an email & call them to make it very clear you no longer approve any work on the car, otherwise you will end up with another invoice.

I have documented everything and went back and gathered all emails between us. There is no agreement sent from him and I have not paid him yet. I don't think he is scamming I think with the changes that went on in his shop things were not conveyed to the new shop manager. Which I feel is not my fault. Thanks for your response.

Correct I never paid any Money because our agreement was to pay monthly with the invoices they were suppose to supply. No money was put down. I did not sign an electronic repair order either. No agreeiment was put into an email or text. That is what I was asking for after we meet and nothing was forthcoming.

Tim,
First send them a certified letter to cease and desist TODAY any work going forward!!

This will stop any more being performed on your car, or at least then they can't invoice you for more work after that date.

Next after they recieve the letter call or email the "owner" and ask for a formal meeting to discuss the issue. Not sure what the state laws are where it's at but I would get VERY good at their laws.

Now write up exactly what was talked about during you talks about what was to be done and costs. Most likely it's a misunderstanding and you justp need to talk it out face to face.

Also try to keep it very professional when talking to him; he has your car so the last thing you want todo is make it personal on his side! I knows it's personal on your side but it's not on his, it's just business to him.

Lastly if he's just out to make a buck then most likely (as stated above) you will have to pay for what was finished on your car to get it back. Sucks I know but it's a he said she said at this point unless you have anything in writing, email, or text to prove your side.

Also when going to talk with him bring a third party with, a friend, expert in the field??? So you have someone to help inspect the work performed and someone to be a witness!

One last thing is don't tell him your going to sue him or take him to court as this will only make it personal and most likely you will have to pay for the lawer and possibly his lawer when he counter sues you as he most likely will. I know I would!!

One more last thing; if the shop is in IL this is a good thing as our court system is almost always on the side of the car owner as they you look at you as the little guy and the shop as the big bad business!!

I think with every situation there are 3 sides to every story. Your side, his side and reality. In a business transaction like this your trying to communicate what you want done for a ballpark price and at a rate equal to your budget. Everyone has a different way to perform a job. Each way can be right but just go about doing it differently. But one way might take more time then another.

It does not sound like your mad about the quality, your just mad that they are going faster then the budgeted amount you want to spend monthly. I will tell you monthly budget cars can be tough. The projects are start and stop and no one likes that kind of a work pace. Its not good for shop a shop owner as the car might sit more per month then it is being worked on in his shop and that is bad for business. That is lost revenue for the shop owner. In those instances I try to work on he car in longer phases. I have one customer that we do his 2 month budget money every two months. You get more work done and its not a start and stop situation. But I would never do that deal for anybody but that customer as he knows and respects how big much trouble it is for me.

Plus it seems that if he did not work on the car for the first few months your were not saving your money during that period. Well that's not really fair on your part. If you don't have the money up front to pay the bill whats the hurry to get it done?

Example - if you have 6 weeks of work to get done and you want to only spend 1 weeks of labor money per month to get it done. 1. Why bring it when you dont have a good chunk of the money up front? 2. Whats the big hurry to get started on the work if you can't pay for it when the shop owner completes the work?

Seems to me the shop owner should have told you to save you money for 4 months and bring the car back in 4 months and you could just pay him every Friday to take his time and when the project is done you pay the bill when the work is done. If the time frame was similar to the example above.

As has been said her many times, there is no amount of planning you can do to know exactly what a car is going to cost you before you start construction. The government spends millions to design Air craft carrier and bridges all the time that go WAY WAY WAY over budget. And that is really something that has very few OPTIONS and new latest greatest parts. I mean how much new fancy crap can you get for a bridge?

Heck can anyone even go to the buffet and put the right amount of food they want to eat on their plate the first time? I always get to much and can't finish my 2nd plate but I sure thought I could when I was filling up my plate.

If you have no quality concern issues, you need to say to the guy this is all I can spend each month, and I need to understand why things are costing my more money then I thought. I encourage customers to ask any and all questions. Building these cars to the levels we are is not science. What fits one car may not fit on another and just because you bought the best parts available on the market does not mean its going to fit and work with your car build and hammered on for 40 years like it did some one else's car.

Well said Rodger.

Tell him to get his stuff together and if you want send him some money.

With no money I bet you got put on the back burner. Sucks to say but it happens. The shop has to make money one way or another and that usually means taking in more work to offset the loss elsewhere.

ERogder and Vince,

Either I'm reading this wrong or your guys are :headscratch: Tim will have to comment but from what I am reading is he was told "up front" what it would cost or at least that the shop could perform the work for his said budget?

But now it seems with nothing in writing the shop is looking to get more for the job or it couldn't do the job for the agreed budget??

Rodger, Tim has built the car himself this was not a full build just somrthings he needed finished up.

I understand where you both (Rodger and Vince) are coming from as you both own shops, unfortunately you are both in the minority when doing things the right way. Sooooo many crooks out there today or guys that do great work but do NOT have a clue how to charge for it. I also get that soooo many customers do NOT understand what it takes to do these builds/projects! I see it all the time when I tell someone how much it will cost just for paint and materials!

I'm not saying this guys is a crook but there is definitely a miscommunication somewhere between Tim and the owner of the shop.

I agree 100%. I have been doing this 14 years and it seems like a long time and I'm only trying to share from the experiences I have gathered and what I understand from where I'm standing.

I don't think anybody in this story sounds like a crook or cheap skate in the situation. At all.

I don't see any crookerage going on. What I suspect is a mis communication between two guys at the shop. Very similar to what my previous partner would do.

I always get an agreement of some sort and at least some money to get to a certain point if the customer is on a tight budget or pay as you go type situation. But even then a shop could get behind if other work has to come in during the stoppage. A situation I suspect is going on in this case.

If I were Tim,

I would talk to the original person we had made the initial agreement with. Try to get the budget and time frame of invoices set and in writing of some sort. If his story changes or he doesn't agree to the original agreement that I understood then I would make arrangements to pay what is owed and find another shop. Till you get to this point its useless to contact an attorney or take action.

Roger you are correct there are always 3 sides to a story and thank you for adding to this post. If you agree to a set "price/ budget" for the work that you have discussed, it should be completed or don't agree to the price. Second I did have all of the budgeted money but was not willing to pay anything until I recieved an invoice progress photos and a written agreement from the shop, Which I was promised but never received.and if any money was needed to purchase parts I would comply only if the price was given first.
And yes the quality of work I am happy with but not the fact that I was being charged an hourly rate, which we never talked about. So I have the agreed amount of money for work that was suppose to be completed. But when the agreement was changed without my knowledge the work is not complete and I am way over my budget. I am told to talk to the new shop manager who knows little about my build, because the owner cannot account for the cost of the hours of labor.What do I do?

Vince sorry my my post was confusing It even confused me when i reread it. I had the money up front, just wanted invoices monthly so I could monitor the spending.

Rick you are correct I guess I am trying to be really vague on a subject that needs detail to understand. Invoices, work complete, and work to be done.
When I asked why it took so long 40 hours, to install 25 ft of stainless steel brake line which was indicated on the invoice I was a little taken back. I do not want something for nothing. I just want a man to stand behind his word!

Rick Is correct here . In Illinois YOU HAVE TO HAVE A SIGNED WORK ORDER TO WORK ON ANY VEHICLE.!!!! Without it he's done. Ask me how I know!:twak:

Your not the only one buddy!! :waveflag:

I agree with Rick, be nice for as long as humanly possible. Remind him again of your original conversation and the confusion that is his responsibility. See if you can negotiate a reasonable number to move on with your life. Let him know that you are disappointed and wish to leave on good terms.

He doesn't have any signed paperwork, you don't have your car in possession.

A consultation with a reputable attorney would be advisable before you engage him. I'd try to handle it yourself after you have been educated. Once it gets nasty, you are going for a wild ride that will cost you more money and the most precious resource you have, time.

I agree.

Agreed

Personally -- I think the shop owner is a crook.

I can still remember conversations I had from 10 years ago. Maybe not every single word - but I know damn good and well if a guy had discussed his budget (might not remember the exact amount)... and what he asked me to do for him.

It DOES NOT take 40 hours to bend up custom brake lines. Holy Cow! Now - if you're building a Ridler car - maybe.... but not to run exposed brake lines.

If Illinois has some rules about having a signed work order/estimate... and this idiot doesn't have one and did work anyway. I'd say you meet with them - take the money and your trailer with you. Discuss your situation and your "memory" of the agreement... but I'd also slip in the fact that HE never produced a written estimate but went forward with the work anyway. That YOU understand he performed some work - but far exceeded your budget - and that HAD you received a written estimate - you would not have allowed him to do the work. Tell him you have "X" cash - the amount of your original budget - and tell him you'd like to pay him that amount and take your car home right now as is.

He's either going to understand he's screwed legally - or he's even more of an idiot than you now think he is. And you're going to have to engage an attorney.
Be prepared for either event. He consents and you get your car - or you take the money you have and pay it to the attorney. It really shouldn't take more than about $500 worth of attorney time if the state law is clear - and the guy can't produce a written signed estimate.

Perfect.

Before you pay a lawyer and start getting things messy I would make sure the shop doing the work is registered as a repair shop (body shop or mechanic shop). Only Repair shops have to follow the "automotive repair act" in Illinois which requires a written estimate.

If they are registered as a restoration shop or anything else for that matter you may be better off trying to work it out with the shop owner.

We have had many builds come in like this from other shops, where the customer says they got screwed (most of the time they did some what only because the quality was lacking)

I agree you never should have gotten 6 invoices at once. Chances are you could have realized with just one it was going to exceed your budget and could have pulled the car at that point.

I have a contract that I have all customers sign before work starts that clearly states in the first line "1. Because of the comprehensive nature of the restoration process, estimates or “bids” of the total cost of a restoration project cannot be given at any time. It is most important that this be understood and accepted. If you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to ask them. "

There are so many shops doing shady work its unfortunate that your in this situation.

Needed a 3:36 open 10 bolt pumpkin third member assembled (4:56s were too stiff for a planned trip). Took it to a "friend" who owned a pretty good speed shop - provided a good, complete core with gears and a new bearing set. Told him not to "gold plate" it. He charged me $1700.00 (gulp). Eight hours of bead blasting at $80.00/hr. shop rate. I didn't flinch, paid the bill, told him (semi-politely) that that kind of thing is the reason he never has repeat customers, and forgot it. We are still friendly, but I would never do business with him or recommend him to others. Some times you just have to cut your losses (and I didn't have a gun with me).

Pappy

Get it out
 

My advice take it out,, this is so bad... :twak:

ok, got ya now. f this guy and shop around for another.

if he is raising prices over what was originally discussed without contacting you then you have no legal right to pay.....however if you didn't sign or agree to it in some tangible form then you maybe sol. In CA verbal agreements do stand up.

41 hours. It sounds like you paid to have someone learn stainless and buy the equipment needed to do it.

That is what I thought to Vince about the brake line. @ 85.00 an hour and 700.00 in material 40 hours seems a bit much ��. The kicker is that the main reason it went there was for wiring and there is nothing complete about the electrical. Its just really been bumming out lately that I even have to deal with this. I am looking into state laws now.

I think what may have happened is the new shop manager is under pressure to show a profit and sending you a bunch of inflated invoices and claiming ignorance of your agreement with the shop owner is an easy way to do it. Pure speculation on my part but it sounds plausible to me.

Don

Yep. Pretty clear to me too.

Up front you did a pretty good job of laying things out -- budget, expectations, monthly invoices. You were already ahead of how most people engage a shop and start things out.

Your crucial mistake was nothing in writing... it does not have to be some uncomfortable legal document that no one wants to sign. A punchlist, an email listing the goals in some amount of detail, something referring to the hourly rate... to be helpful (later) it can still be very casual and non-confrontational.

Where I think you really went wrong was what I bolded and underlined above..... you should have stopped right there and said - politely of course - NO I did not have a conversation with your newly hired shop manager --- I had this conversation about budget and expectations with YOU.... the OWNER!

When you need to get things accomplished or remedied, you never go DOWN the food chain... you go UP it. And you were already at it. Sorry, but this is a bad sign in my eyes. It is fixable though.

I do not know who your last conversation was with --- it sounds like the new shop manager --- but the next one and everyone here on out needs to be with the owner.

Best of luck to you in this sh!tty deal. Many of us have been there in one way or another.

Laws
 

New laws have come out.

Tim-

The way I read that it pertains to a "REPAIR SHOP". I see you where asked about this previously, but haven't seen you're response. Is it a "REPAIR SHOP"? If not what kind of shop is it?

What sources are you using for information on the laws that pertain to this state and situation?

Look man... you got suckered in by some D-Bag who was all smiles, saying nice things, laughing with you in his office, which is probably covered with pictures of rainbows, kittens and unicorns. Yeah, you're at fault for not doing your home work before hand and covering all the bases with signed agreements. It's a messed up world in a lot of ways these days. Sadly we have to protect ourselves in ways that we haven't had to use as much in the past. Ways that seem silly and are kind of foreign to us.

Right now you really need to be focused on "RECOVERY". You trusted this guy to honor his word. He claims to have no memory of that conversation or agreement. TIM!!! Wake up...that's your sign!!! He's done this before and knows the different avenues people will take and what will happen. Right now HE HAS YOUR CAR!!! That empowers him and weakens you. You want your car back and he knows it. He's basically holding it hostage. Thinking he isn't already two steps ahead of you is a mistake. This sounds like the kind of guy who suddenly wants to charge you months of storage fee's in addition to the inflated, because you suddenly don't agree.

Tim...the number one thing I would be looking at is how to recover your car ASAP. You say that there is nothing in writing. If that's true, then you need to be looking into the laws that cover you picking up your car without paying for the work. You can always haggle that out later. TAKE AWAY THE HOLD HE HAS OVER YOU!!!!! How well do you think he is going to take care of your car while you two battle it out in court? Will you then have to have a second legal battle over damages done to the car while it sat in his shop? I'm not saying pay the man right now. NO!:twak: I'm saying get your car if you can and then argue the bill. If you hold all the cards...things will change. Suddenly he remember the "deal", apologizes for the trouble while hold up a picture of cute puppy or something, all in the hopes you will pay him the amount you two originally agreed on.

I don't mean to be a jerk to you Tim. I just really hate this kind of crap. It pains me to see this kind of crap over and over. I've had a year of losses and learned just how down right filthy people you think are good, honorable and trust worthy can be. People you where close to. Protect your self, your family and your money.

I was trying to stay out of this post. But I feel you may partially be at blame
here.

You said you dropped the car off and went over your punch list.

You said you wanted photos.

You said you wanted monthly invoices.

None of which happened which seems strange to me. Okay, so my next question did
at anytime over the months that the car was at the shop did you ever visit the
car to check progress, speak to the owner and even ask for progress update and
of course an invoice.

Some people seem to trust people blindly which it seems like you did. So far
I've built 3 project car one with an unlimited budget and there was constant
communication between myself, the fab shop, body shop, interior shop and the
Final builder.

Seems to that you should have stopped by the shop to see the progress and that
way you would have known exactly where you were on the bill.

Marty,

Thank you for responding, I asked for photos and was told that they were going to get them to me. When I asked about invoices I was told that there was not that much work done to create one and that they would get them to me and when we tried to set up a time for me to come and see the car he was tied up with racing or something else. I really did not have a concrete deadline but wanted it before the winter. I had multiple phone conversations with them about, seats, shifter color and console layout and measurements. Right now I am not happy that I did not push hard enough to set up a date to meet at the shop. And yes I did trust him I had no reason not to. But he also admitted that there was some changes within his shop that led to a lot of miscommunication between him and his shop manager.
And call me a little crazy but not sure if I was a shop I would be spending to many labor hours if there was no money coming in on the build. I personally think things got out of hand from the other shop manager and now they need to fix it, that is why 6 months later I finally got invoices and pictures...was he being told by the other shop manager that these were sent out? I do not know but someone dropped the ball.

Curtis comes from experience on this, listen to him...carefully. Get your car and go from there, or you might not ever see it again this side of the legal process.

Thanks Jim I am taking in everyone's response especially Curtis seriously, I have read his story and it scares me.

because no one else will.

good luck Tim.

Since im usually last in line to work on a car(interior), I have heard a lot of these stories from customers thru the years (23 now). some work out others dont. Todd has some good advice veags69, The guy sounds like a BS artist to me, Get it out of there as soon as you can

Operation Recovery
 

I am working on it Tracy, I am trying to make plans to get it. And all of the parts that I dropped off to him.