Is there a better way to execute car projects
 

Disclosure: For several years I have been having this internal dialog with myself about mixing an early semi-retirement with car building. Specifically how to retire from the business that I am in and taking a significant salary reduction but getting the opportunity to work in a custom car building environment.

I have spent the last 15 or so years building teams that design and implement custom software solutions. Prior to that I spent 10 years with Lexus 2 years with Jaguar and a few of my formative years at a race engine shop and a corvette restoration company.
In the last 5 or so I have been using Lean/Agile methods to deliver custom software solutions to big banks and financial institutions. The adoption of these practices has increased quality, customer stratification and profit while simultaneously reducing time to market. I would love to explore if I could replicate these successes in the context of custom car projects.

It got me thinking... could these principles help solve the problems that plague the custom car customer? Over budget, scope creep.... body shop hell... call it whatever you like... typically what you end up with is paying too much for less than you expected and getting it later than promised. Meanwhile the builder feels like he lost money...

Problem 1: I will be far too old and unskilled to be a hands on craftsperson.
Problem 2: The business itself is plagued with bad business practice (the ole better craftsmen then businessmen issue)
Problem 3: Every build by its nature is custom and as such subject to lots of uncertainty.
Problem 4: To my knowledge no structured project management principles have precedence in the custom car world.

So on to my question.. Is this pipe-dream something that the pro-builders and customers would have an appetite for?
Is there a problem here worth solving?

My experience and reading on this forum and others leads me to believe that from the customers point of view there has to be a better way of doing things. From a shop point of view the idea of increased productivity, higher profit and more satisfied customers is a win win. I was wondering if something like doing a project in a “Lean or Agile” structured way via these methods would be attractive to anyone?

Referance Lean in the construction buisness: http://ennova.com.au/blog/2011/09/ag...d-construction

Just some random thoughts and my observations based on watching places operate, and my prior experience running an auto service shop. I have also thought about this path for "retirement".

I am a former ASE certified Master Tech, have an Auto Tech Associates degree, have a Bachelor and Masters in Mechanical Engineering, and 19 years experience in a variety of development, design, manufacturing, and project management roles on top of my 8 years as an auto mechanic. I was heavily involved in round track and drag racing when I was younger and even worked at MSD (Autotronics Corp - El Paso, TX) for a short period in the 80's when I was a student.

This business is hard to model in the traditional sense, the body, paint and fabrication work still require some level of craftsman / artist type work which is difficult to estimate. The variation in the work is also hard to get a handle on, most vehicles need to be taken down to bare metal before you have a good idea of the scope of work. With sufficient experience base I think one could get reasonably good at estimating. I think the problem also lies in the fact that if you have to do a large amount of sheet metal replacement, bodywork, and paint then your time and materials will quickly outpace the value of the vehicle in most cases.

I think some of the really big operations have good project managers / shop leads. The problem is that in order to be efficient, you would have to have some scale and have a group of workers with a variety of skills and some flexibility. The issue this creates is that you need a workload that can keep this machine fed. The few shops that seem to be able to pull this off and do well have a customer base with deep pockets and run a large number of big projects with long timelines. Then you can fill with smaller projects and schedule work around the bigger ones. That kind of customer base only seems to be available to a few shops with reputations of building top level show winning cars. Kindig, Foose, Strope, Trepanier... and I think the common denominator on these guys is that they are artists first.

Other shops, like DSE, have a core business that involves selling a product. The builds in their shop seem like partly R&D for their products.

Finding and keeping good tradesmen is a difficult task. Having a good recruiting practice and good people management skills would be key, it would also be helpful in dealing with customers. At some level you may also have to make a call on what you can do in house and what to farm out. For example, I know a local shop that does custom upholstery, headliners, and convertible tops that would be hard to beat.

And you forgot about Problem #5: A lot of customers have cash flow issues... real or perceived. I have seen a lot of projects stall because the customer stopped paying.

Great topic!

I have lead team and projects using a great deal of methodology from the PMBOK for years and have had the same thoughts\ observations. I think its a great idea if the details are worked out. There is CLEARLY a small PMO presence in many of the shops we've dealt with, which leads to missed deadlines, unexpected costs and fuzzy expectations.

A small story of one place I did see it in action:
In my business travels, I have only see one shop use a formal methodology and was so interested in the process that I had a one on one with the owner to share his thoughts and see how well it works from his prospective.

It was a custom paint shop, which was shocking since body guys are notorious for having creeping completion dates.

He had a calendar on the wall in the main shop area and it was outlined in a 2-week sprint layout. When I saw it, I knew there was a SCRUM methodology in play at his shop.

At our lunch meeting, he explained that it works as long as you can have what he called 'heavy resources'. More specifically, your customers have to have committed payments made at the end of every 2 week sprint. The other part of the heavy resources that he was constantly in need of was qualified paint and body employees. He explained that attrition was a problem by nature of mixing body and paint guys and structured project management because of 2 observations he's made:
1. Very good paint and body guys like structure and quickly move from working for others to working for themselves because of their own self-motivation.
2. Less accomplished paint and body folks who do the daily grind are usually not driven by structure so applying PMBOK methodology to their work day would be met with push-back and typically, loss of employment.
He accepted that attrition is something that comes with his labor community.

The car we had in was not only painted and returned ahead of time (by two days but hey, that's great) but the project schedule was hammered out with us before the car went in and we had to sign a commitment to deliver the car on X day in order for him to honor the schedule and payments were made at the end of each sprint or the work done in that time. It worked great and at the end of each sprint, there were picture updates sent and description of what the next sprint would include. Needless to say, we were impressed and incorporated small parts of their process into our own.

I think you're on to something and it's needed in the industry on a larger scale. Helping customers realize the advantage to the added cost that implementing formal PM processes may take time. Seeing that time is our most valuable resource on Earth, I could see how others would pay a bit more knowing that when you set a delivery date, it will be met.

Cant wait to hear what others have to share on this topic. Good one!

This is a great topic and something I have really tried to put my total effort into for the past couple years. I feel this is the most important aspect of any business. But I'm not convinced you can have a solid pre planned program when so many variables can be out of the shop owners control.

Customers cash flow - This has no relation to the the depth of the customers pockets. This has to do with the urgency of the customer to pay for the agreed bill during and at completion of the project.

Project Creep - Customer wanting more and more from the initial project scope. And after the project was torn down or fit up work really begins, finding parts don't fit like they should. Or the car had more bondo then was expected.

Flaky vendors - Outside vendors with parts or services that that don't do what they say.

Lack of Communication on the Builder or Customers part. The builder needs to know before he does the work, you can't pay your bill this month and the customer needs to have some idea why a certain aspect may have taken longer. Now I realize the builder can work on their responsibility, but they cannot control the customer.

The lack of actual knowledge the customer may have in the process, even though they want and do act like they know just as much as you do. This is the reason car builders get some kind of undue rock star status, cuz its in style to be knowledgeable about how to build cool cars. When really car builders do anything redeeming for society. We are kinda like Paris Hilton, famous for being famous for nothing important.

The Hot Rod shop model relies all it's revenue on a few customers so the percentage of revenue is much higher per customer, not a bunch like an autobody shop or auto repair shop that has tons of invoices for much lower amounts.

The other thing about this industry is that this is a not a necessity in life or survival so peoples desire to spend money can change much quicker, with the down turn in the stock market or just the fact their wife found out how much it really costs. If your car breaks and the stock market crashes, you still have to fix your car.

I think it just takes some one to actually run their shop like a business, not a hobby and work to the executive or management side with great importance. So many builder hate paperwork and just don't do it or leave it to be handled by some one that does not deal with the customer directly. And this is where the break down begins.

Good discussion.
I am sure most shops are in the same boat on one level or another.
I know guys who spend all their time and money building cool cars to use for advertising and are so "INTO" building cool cars that they end up just building cool cars and never get the business working. I on the other hand spend 90% of my time on the business side and if a cool car happens then that is awesome. but I figure with out a business that makes money there won't be any cool cars. I have friend that continually prove me wrong on this point.

Our focus is a little different in that the PART are #1 and building cars and installing the parts are #2 (not that we don't do a good job on the cars also)
but I do not pursue the high end super custom cars been there done that!

I agree with Rodger about the customers that have the money to pay are not always WILLING to pay. and that causes problems with the scheduling.

I have a excel spread sheet that I use to HELP Estimate jobs, it is not perfect but it does help. one thing I notice is that when you lay it all out and show the customer on paper what the REAL cost is.......... most are scared away.

It is odd to me that this is about the only profession that I can think of where you give an ESTIMATE before you ever see the job, then do work and hope you get paid, all the way along till the LAST invoice then the whining starts and the negotiating and nit picking and the builder takes it in the shorts every time. contract or no contract
it is like it is not a legitimate industry (and sure some are not legitimate but that is what you get when you take your car to a guy in his garage and get a low labor rate )
I always joke I should have been a plumber then the only tools I would need are a white Chevy van, pipe wrench and plunger. Instead of 100's of thousands of dollars worth of equipment to charge less than a plumber???

One thing I find interesting in our industry is the hourly labor rate.

Today ... 2014 ... Auto Dealerships, Copier Repairmen & most Technical Trades with repair technicians commonly charge customers a little over $100 per hour for a pretty common service. It has always seemed odd to me that ultra talented shops building trick race cars, customized show cars or some combination in between charge less per hour.

I'm not suggesting shops raise their prices to $110 an hour, as you may price yourself out of the market. But it does seem odd that common repairs of production cars, copiers, etc, are billed at $100+ while work performed by rare talented craftsmen is billed at a lower rate. It makes the business of building race/custom cars more challenging to be profitable at & harder to keep employees long term.

I owned a race car chassis building shop & starved for a couple years until a mentor taught me the "business of business" ... and I made my shop profitable & smooth running. But it is no small task. I am sure there are ProTouring shops that do a great job at both ... making money & keeping employees. But it is very challenging in any business ... and even harder if the market pays less for higher grade work.

:cheers:

Ironworks, Blake, Ron... Excellent points!

Communication, communication, communication right?

One thing I try to constantly remind myself to run like a checklist is the communication to customers on how this process will go, what is expected of them by when and what exactly we will be doing so they can get the understanding that it's an involved process.

So this might be a good conversation for this topic. Best practices to keep project management and the discipline to run it like a business instead of a hobby. I'd love to hear what others think should be\ not be in the list from either an owner\ operator or a customer's prospective.

Three documents that I find are life savers but take some discipline to use and I have had to evolve into what I use today:

1. Written Detailed Estimate of Work (to outline all the details discussed before hand). Not just 'build part x' but build it for this customer, using these materials and then amend with a start and estimated end date when possible after timing has been agreed on and the Estimate turns to a contract. I am not only surprised by how many shops dont do this but am uncomfortable when I have work done and they do not supply me with this as a customer. I always feel like a surprise is in my future and make it a point to connect with the manager of the project so they know I really appreciate knowing of changes up front instead of waiting until the end and get hit with it. I'm a big boy, I can take bad news... just less gracefully if it's at the end when the bill shows up.

2. MOU (Memorandum of Understanding) I explain this as the 'rules to the game'. Since Monopoly can be played different in every household, it's best to agree on the rules before the dice are rolled. That's usually where we discuss what is expected of the customer as far as engagement, payment schedule, how to access their customer page for project updates and... the change orders (which is #3).

3. Change orders - If something changes from the written detailed estimate that was signed, it must have a change order stating what changed in work, time and\ or price. Very simple to do, and cheap insurance for the customer to make sure they understand and are happy.

Does anyone agree? What else is there that might compliment or even replace any of these?

Learning hat is on. :thumbsup:

So my question is who pays for the Written Detailed Estimate? Our main customers would tell me just to get to work and communicate with them as the process unfolds what is happening. I talk with customers as much as they want and open the door for the dumbest questions, Because if its a question for them its not dumb. They need to understand the process and they have to see they are being treated fairly.

How can you expect a guy to give a spot on Estimate on a project of this precision when the can't build air craft carriers or bridges on time and exactly on budget?

We are working on 55 Chevrolet and we put a new quarter panel on one side and not the other. I now know it would have been much less work to have put a quarter panel on both sides due to the stamping differences from the original quarter panels and the repo unit. It was a major visual difference. MAJOR. How do you budget for that? Whose fault is that? We are hired to build perfect cars with very imperfect parts that are marketed to Just bolt right on cars that were not perfect when new and perform perfectly. And just because a parts fits perfectly on one car does not mean it will fit perfectly on the next car.

The biggest thing I have learned is you have to be able to charge a customer a fair amount of money to be able to keep the ball rolling. You also have to take your licks when you screw something up. No one builds everything perfect every time. The way to win a customer is with integrity and knocking money off the bill with out them asking because you screwed something up does that.

The only way to fix a lack of communication is with the communication the customer wants and needs to hear to understand. But you can explain it to them all day long and it does not mean they understand you, even if they say they do.

This Thread needs a Like Button!

I've always thought of the car building industry as being pretty similar to residential contractor\remodeler work.

When bidding for remodel jobs one has to take into consideration hidden "gotchas" that will pop up behind the old sheetrock, likewise a car builder has to be prepared for gotchas behind paint or parts not fitting as intended. One also has to work with change orders, like the customer not liking a new wall once it's put up or new parts purchased and minds changed mid build on a car. At the same time, the contractor\car builder has to be careful to not price themselves out of the market before they even get the job.

Whereas new home construction can be very different. I recently helped my MIL buy a new house in FL in a pre-planned community. This subdivision was completely planned out, down to the trim color on each and every house in the subdivision...well before the first pile of dirt was ever pushed. I've never seen anything like it before.

This approach to home building is very similar to what is being discussed in this thread, but it leaves very little wiggle room for changes and everyone involved has to stay on pace and deliver what they promise in order for it to work. I don't know the numbers but I can imagine that volume purchasing and pre-scheduling greatly affects the margin in this type of product and surprises are kept to a bare minimum since everything is so planned out before you start

I'm not sure how you integrate new building policies and procedures into a remodel type industry, but I'm watching to see the ideas bantered about. There has to be a way to do things better than currently done at a lot of shops I'm sure, but I'm not sure it gets to the totally pre-planned approach before the building ever starts.

Great insights. We use an excell spreadsheet thing as well that I developed after a pointless search for something that was simple enough for a gearhead to use, but flexible enough for the constantly changing scope of work on some projects. Helps alot, but like has been said, if you actually show the whole thing to a prospective customer, they get scared.
Part of the planning problem too is that it is very time consuming [expensive] Doing it before the project is approved can mean tons of time down the drain if the customer gets scared, not doing it makes it really hard to be fair to someone asking about the cost of a project.
How detailed do you guys get on your invoices. Is time broken into segments? We do a list of stuff accomplished this week and a total # of hours. I keep pretty good individual record for in house but don't show it to the customer. It's sort of like the 2 week sprint but customer sees stuff in writing every week after it's done.

Thoughts inline:

Hope this Helps:thumbsup:

OK... having just put my car through the modification / body / paint mill I want to make some remarks from a customer perspective.

Oh, I wish... never found a shop that was willing to do this in three years of looking. I could not find ANYONE willing to give me an actual written quote. One shop I visited the owner told me not to visit unless I called in advance because he may not be open if he had something to do that day, had no idea how long it would take, and had a car that he stripped six months previously sitting off to the side without any primer on it. Best I found was "as long as you keep up with the bill we keep working on your car" and "just stop by occasionally so we can discuss the next step, otherwise I do what I think you want" combined with the fact that I visited the fabricator who was actually working on the car and took him out to lunch once to make sure he understood what I wanted because the boss would tell him something else. Either he sometimes got customers mixed up or the two of them had communication issues. The fabricator started texting me questions occasionally when something the boss told him did not sound right or did not sync with what I had told him. My final choice on this shop was made seeing some of the completed work, talking to a few prior customers, and observing the shops practices. I took the "personalities" of the owner and the tradesmen involved in to account also. Overall one of the better places I visited, was relatively close to home and work, and I had a good level of confidence I could get the car back in less than a year.

See above comments...

Once again...

One of the things I liked about the shop I chose, they had a folder for each car, written inside the folder was a daily number of hours billed. All receipts were kept in the folder. I paid about two weeks ahead on labor. I could come look at the folder anytime I wanted, and whenever my balance approached zero I would write another check. The last two weeks I let them run negative and I paid the balance on delivery day.

I think about half the customers I saw during the 9 months my car was in the shop had this issue. The boss had to stop work on their cars or at least threaten to do so occasionally. I actually gave him permission to slow down on my car to get other small, paying jobs out as long as he did not come to a complete stop on my car. I knew mine was going to sit for periods of time after it got home so I was not in a big rush.

I think this happened on a majority of the projects I saw... the extreme was the car that came in for a few minor touch ups and left with an LSA and a paint job.

Yes - constantly, and you Chevy guys have it good! I pretty much expect any work, part or restoration detail work to take at least twice as long as quoted and then need to be significantly modified to fit the car. Even "off the shelf" cylinder heads from Edelbrock which I ordered in June and received in October were only supposed to take 3 weeks to get. I almost fell over in shock when a K-frame I sent to have modified and powder coated arrived sooner than expected and was done exactly as specified!

Its always "in the details". I think time in=experience. I've always said "hard work= good results", even in financial faiure, if you were sincere in your heart, you've still gained invaluable experience.

Tommy Silva of "This Old House" fame, said "when you build a house there are 7000 things you need to know, when you rebuild/remodel a house there are 70,000 things you need to know".

Backing into a relm of variables brings an unknown, remodeling as opposed to building new. Houses and contracting are much more expensive, but man hours are man hours, however, a much more appreciatory asset, so there are more rewards. Rebuilding a car is very similar to rebuilding a house, but the house will probably go up in value...

I love building, whether its housing or automotive, "if you find something you love to do, you'll never have to work a day in your life", but then the business gets involved.....and that gets tricky. Every customer is different,, every job is different, Us leaders are "supposed" to be flexible, and i don't know how to bend lol.
Great topic, love listening too the different opinions on how we do things.....

Hope some of this makes sense.....

Great thread !I agree with Ron 100% about the labor rate, but custom shops may be forced into it, so to speak.
If you walk in the dealership garage, you see the newest diagnostics computers, top quality equipment, skilled and trained (ASE) techs, who have made major investments in their own tool sets. The training and equipment gives them the ability to get something done in an hour. Like wise, the investment these techs have made in them selves demands a higher pay scale. The dealership has to charge a rate high enough to cover these costs, but, the customer gets the job done right in a timely manor.
Now walk in to many Hot Rod shops, and you may see a welder or two, a few old tool boxes, a drill press and a grinder, ..... It's also quite common that t he employees here have had little or no formal training, and have made little or no investment in their own skill set and future. In effect, they are not acting in a "Professional" manner. They do not get much done in an hour, and they labor rate suffers in turn.

I know that this is not all shops, but many of you would have to agree that this setting of a Hot Rod shop is the most common, and that the Professionally run shops are a rarity. Management is the key, and for the long term, we have to look at the management of our industry as one area that needs help, a lot of help. Have a great day guys.

A lot of great items for execution and operational challenges are already listed so to add to the conversation I'll focus a little more on the business strategy.

If you look at the auto repair business (mechanical, paint, etc.) the business models are similar in the general strategy. They attempt to streamline the processes or areas of expertise. Diagnose, repair, repeat. The goal is to just like a restaurant in a lot of ways. The more turn over they can manage in a given period the more revenue they can bring in. Streamlining the process can help control costs, reduce process time, and increase the bottom line / allows them to operate in the black. The best general managers / owners are the ones who can manage to the model and manage the execution/operational challenges already listed.

The business model for a custom car shop is by it's nature an inefficient processes. Each car is a one-off build requiring multiple sets of talents (metal fab, paint/body, wiring, plumbing, interior, engine/mechanical). As your business becomes more specialized or less streamlined your costs increase which drives up your prices. If a auto repair hourly rate is at $110-$140 having already built in the efficiencies into the rates then your custom car shop would be much higher. This rate is a basic calculation: Annual (Overhead (rent/insurance/etc) + labor + parts + marketing/advertizing + unexpected overage ratio + profit percent) / (Number of units (cars) per year). With your cost per car baseline you can then figure out your hourly rate by dividing your available labor hours by number of units per year, then divide it by the cost per car.

Many of the successful shops I believe started on a shoestring approach with one or two people who had a wide variety of talent sets required. As they were able to build a customer base they quickly compartmentalized the build process as quickly as possible to streamline and reduce build time. You see this with many of the successful shops though you may not recognize it. There are designated areas and resources for each step of the process.

I believe many of the unsuccessful shops failed because they never moved beyond one or two people trying to do everything. If you are a two man shop your cost per hour has to be extremely high in order to break even and keep your doors open. As a customer, would you pay double the rate of a national know/name build shop to support your local builder with 2 resources? Probably not. The only caveat here I can think of is the retired/hobby shop owner who does it out of 'fun' with the sole purpose of trying to stay out of the red at the end of the year while having fun in the process.

As a business model the custom car shop is something you really would never want to invest in. The most successful shop isn't going to bring in more than a few million at most for the owner, it's not replicable (you can't easily franchise or open multiple locations due to the highly skilled talent required), and the market of people who want a custom car is very small and of those who can afford it it's even smaller.

Hat tip to this thread being started. :thumbsup:

Agreed.

Plus in the custom car world your trying to give each car a different personal feel for the owner. In auto repair, you just fix it properly and send it down the road. There is no personalization or emotion in the process. It's either fixed and working or its not.

The simpler and less custom you make each build the more you can scale that business model. The is no way to scale the high end side of the custom car world. The bigger the scale the less options. Until pretty soon your considering a Shelby Mustang custom.

this is a bit off topic

I would agree for a lot of shops, but let me put it this way.

If your a lawyer you went to school for ...... say 7 year? right.
I have been doing this since I was 13 and have been paying my way to learn, buy tools, and learn and learn for 33 year, so I have effectively been going to school for 33 years, how does that make a lawyer able to charge 300+ an hours and me only 80. I have a 20,000 sqft shop with likely 250,000 worth of tools and equipment. what is it that he does that a custom shop doesn't do?
I will tell you my lawyer cant open the hood of his BMW and I cant decipher the laws any better.
What I am getting at is that they are both PROFESSIONS. one cant do the others job. So I don't have a sheet of paper saying I went to school, I have a BUNCH of pictures and completed cars and happy customers of past work that PROVES I went to school. oh and when your lawyer looses in court............. YOU STILL PAY THE BILL!!! no bargaining.

All I am saying is that there ARE shops that are PROFESSIONALS and if you choose to take your car to someone who isn't then expect the same results

One point that may help in other's considerations of what recipe might work to formulate a better way to execute car projects is to repeat a pretty good summary of application for the Project Management Book of Knowledge (PMBOK) that I once heard.

If you think of the PMBOK as the Bible and a particular project as a different religion you apply the 'Bible' to. For the most part, the essential pieces remain the same but you pick and pull what will work best from the PMBOK for that project. A different project may require a different 'religion'.

Once I realized that it's more of a dance than a science it made it easy to say were not using X for this project because it doesn't work. Lets try something else out of there.

I think back to managing large IT projects and how the different groups called for different approaches (although the MOU, SLA, Burn-down charts and Sprint backlogs still had to be worked every week) to get everything done.

Infrastructure and platform-as-a-service teams worked best when we applied a large amount of project management. An easy parallel would be your large car maker's assembly line processes. Cookie cutter and lots of checks and balances involved. I think this side of the industry is where we mostly get frustrated with pushed deadlines because hanging new fenders and doing a respray should be pretty straight forward for a professional. I ***think*** this may be the side of things where we could best focus on some good best practices for our industry. They are there but not enough of the smaller shops observe them.

The Web development guys who did front end graphics... oh no, no, no... those are your artists and they'd subconsciously push back on regulation of time and deliveries to the point of being in serious risk of their jobs with as much methodology as applied to the other groups. They were artists so creativity had to flow in a less regulated way some times. This is where maybe most custom car guys are (half of me SO identifies with this group). Creativity is not inspired by a work breakdown chart and a Monday morning due date. Other methods much apply to these types of crafts which makes it very difficult to manage as a project. I think this side of the industry is where we mostly understand and don't get frustrated with pushed deadlines.

Your point is very valid and brings up a good consideration to applying the execution of car projects (or any parallel trade) which is technical break\fix vs. Customization.

From what I've read so far, we mostly all agree that simple things like paint repairs, engine swaps, Audio installs and interior projects with little customization are more predictable and therefore could lend to be managed using more project management methodologies.

Managing full custom builds that are WAY off the beaten path becomes much more challenging to do and nail the landing on completion dates because we're talking about artists, inspiration, exploration of 4 things that don't work to discover the one that does, etc. Not to say that a good system in place cant help but would create a pretty big paper trail in change orders and resetting commitment on completion dates.

I also want to be the fist to call myself out to say that this is much like discussing diet and exercise: I have some experience in doing it good and also in doing it bad and I fight that challenge every day along with everyone else to get better. I want to run an amazing operation but know that it only comes by going to path of good > great > excellent > amazing.

Blake, I agree with you to a point. I AM NOT A LAWYER!!!! Usually you go to a lawyer, doctor, plumber, electrician etc...because it is a necessity. Personally my 69 camaro and 55 are NOT necessities but wants. If it comes down to getting a plumbing or electrical problem fixed in my house vs putting more money into my cars well you know where I will spend my money. BUT....just because a shop charges a higher hour rate does not mean the job will cost more money. Example:
Shop A charges $50/hour but takes 20 hours to complete a job. Total bill is $1,000
Shop B charges $100/hour but takes 5 hours to complete a job. Total bill is $500.
A shop that does not routinely put in mini tubs will take substantially longer than a shop that does daily.
I personally would not take a pro touring project to a shop that primarily does stock restorations and vice versa. I say charge what you want.

I didn't read every post here so I may be redundant.... but I have now had THREE cars professionally built. All three are at high end nationally recognized shops. So perhaps I can lend some "thoughts" to the question.

#1 - Thing that I've become aware of is having customers that can actually AFFORD to build what they're building. Why is this important? Because the shop can order parts - stay on the build - get paid on time.

#2 - Project creep. This is fine if #1 is met. Otherwise - it leads to too many "oh sh!t" moments by customer and shop. Project creep is inevitable. Your buddies stop by and say - hey! You know what would really be cool.... or the way something was supposed to look, doesn't work right... and that leads to brainstorming which leads to more work.

#3 - Working with customers based on upfront "price" for the work. This is IMPOSSIBLE. These projects always take more time and cost more money.. why? Because it's custom. Custom hasn't been done before - or often - and thus nobody really knows what it's going to take to pull off.


Here's my own REAL WORLD experince:



SAR experience.... Now -- this is not about "ME" -- I'm just using my own experience. The SAR build started as a rear end and tranny swap... and finding out what was wrong with the motor. Once the body was off the chassis ---- it turned in to a full on build. I never asked what it was going to cost. I know that I can afford to do the job whatever that is. This is certainly not true for most people.... even if they have plenty of money - they didn't get their money by just throwing it around. Sometimes the guys with the most money are also the most demanding and difficult! Think about this scenario.... the car goes into the shop... a very small scope of work... which turned into a $200K plus build. This happens more often than not. Did the shop have the time and people in place to take this on --- or is it going to sit and wait for available time?


BRIZIO experience.... This was a discussion which began in a hotel lobby. A stop at the shop and some more detailed discussion. A basic plan was put on to paper and a general discussion about cost to completion. A "quote" which was just a casual discussion was "somewhere around $225 to $300K depending on how custom you want to go. Here's my point here. If a guy can't afford to discuss these kinds of numbers. He has no business even starting a project. BRIZIO has a waiting list to get a build done... he doesn't need to quote some BS number to get a customer hooked into the shop. Many shops under-estimate on purpose. They don't really know what their costs are going to be and they don't want to scare off a potential customer. THEY need a customer because they have rent and salaries due next week. The problems start when both the customer and the shop are BS'ing each other!! The shop says -- $125K and the real deal is far closer to $250K or more! The stupid customer is fine with the $125K because he's also BS'ing himself into thinking it can be done for that. If he went home and added up the "hard costs" - body - motor/trans - wheels - upholstery/paint... he'd know he has $100k in just hard parts ----- no way it's built for $25K in labor. DOH! That isn't going to end well.


Pinkee's Rod Shop experience.... This build started with me trying to buy Eric's personal '40 Ford pickup. HE did a comparo of building out his truck including the purchase price - vs - buying a clapped out truck and starting new. While it was closer than you'd think - it made more sense to buy a body somewhere. Just the labor wasted on taking something apart has to be included in the "build". This is a rather straight forward simple build. Body - some mods - frame - motor/trans - paint - upholstery - tires and wheels. A "number" was discussed - and that number is a good starting point because it was a REAL number. Around $150K+ to start. NOW -- the other day I email him and ask if he has some "ideas" for some "Pinkee's" style to be done on the truck... and here ya go.... what is that - does it require a re-do of work already done? Where does that lead... how much time did it just add? What does changing one thing do to something else? NOBODY KNOWS.


In the end -- the point of my long winded ramble is that it all depends on the type of customer you can attract and KEEP... and you're not going to attract a "me" when you're just starting out. Nobody is going to walk in and have you build a car for them when there's The Roadster Shop - or Brizio's - or Trepanier - or Jessie Greening.... So you're going to start off with the BS builds where you don't know what the cost is going to be and you really don't know if the customer can pay the freight.

Now -- let's add the "small shop" syndrome. You're just starting out - you can't define who you are - or what is coming thru the door. You might have a remodel of a '32 Ford -- or it might be a full on custom '70 Ford. YOU are going to have to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to find parts suppliers. Learning what works and what doesn't... AND waiting for the parts to arrive... and you can't do X without Y being on hand... Fine if you have half a dozen cars going at any given time... but what if you only have 2 and you don't have the parts to go forward on either of them. Or you get the parts and they're shipped wrong - or don't fit....

A shop like Brizio's builds the same "style" of cars over and over - they have suppliers that will bust their butts to keep them happy. They'll get the last set of headers on the shelf before some guy they've never heard of before gets them.... They've built the same stuff so many times they know what is going to work and what combo doesn't. They have customers that are experienced and they trust the shop to make adjustments as they come up. When I needed a replacement water pump and nobody had one - they made a call deep inside to a supplier -- all the way to the Dyno room at that supplier and got one. Normal shops don't have those connections. Many times it's not what you know it's WHO you know.


IMHO -- many of the "bad" experiences start with a customer that is a dumbass... who has chosen a shop based on an unrealistic quote/cost basis that suits what he thinks it should be done for. The shop is all to happy to take on the work = maybe honestly or maybe just because they need that work right now. Many times that shop might be a body shop and now you're asking them to be a mechanical shop and a suspension shop. Many times that shop is used to doing spot paint and the occasional whole car paint job... and you're expecting SEMA quality paint and bodywork.... on a body shop quote.

In the end -- it's a MESSY BUSINESS.... period. I don't know that anyone is capable of making it a simple well run machine - because you're dealing with people and I think it's the people that are the messy part - not just the cars. If that makes sense.

Greg,

So when do I/We :y0!: get to start on your next project ? :mock: :G-Dub: :lmao: :rofl: :lolhit:

Oh shoot! I must have been thinking about the wrong Greg :snapout: Sorry !!

And There you have it. I have worked with Ron and let me tell you when he says comprehensive, it probably included the 1/4" flat washers. If there was creep then it is going to be almost IMPOSSIBLE to not have it.

Greg is right on the mark when he talks about shops not padding the estimate and Customers THINKING it can be done for less.

HAHAHAHAHAHA - Get in line! You have no idea how many people approach me wanting to build something. That and the last two were accidental builds. LOL

You would be on my very short list of who has the potential though! XOXO

I should have said FOUR "experiences"! I didn't think about the Mustang as a normal project -- but frankly -- it was no different than any other project except that it didn't entail body and paint work.

This was another -- "just happened" project. I asked Ron to take a long look at the car and to assess what improvements it could use. That lead to a complete re-do, and I couldn't be happier with the outcome. And yes -- there were additional work items - but once again - who would expect to NOT have additional work once you get in there and see what's what?!?!?! Only somebody that's a complete dumbass would think he's only going to do exactly what was discussed and it was going to cost exactly what was talked about. Complete BS! These are cars... they have issues. We don't know what the issues are until people rip into them.

Now - in fairness to Ron... The discussion was also along the lines of WHAT IS OF VALUE based on the cars use -- and my expectations. HE gave me reasons and options all based on what I described to him as my expectations. There was no budget discussion until we first had the expectations/use conversation. Then he came up with a plan and quoted a cost. From there we moved forward. Was it done on the cheap? NO! Was it done right, and fair, and exceeds expectations? YES!

A QUALITY shop won't do "on the cheap" builds... they'll simply come up with an excuse to NOT work on your car. I remember asking Roy Brizio if he'd build me a chassis for my '37 Ford... and he said "sure we can! But you won't want to pay me what it's going to cost. There are too many businesses that will build you a chassis for 10 grand -- and I'm going to have to charge you time and material and that's going to cost you way more than it's worth... but if you want me to I will?" That's the kind of shop I want to do business with.

If Ron wanted me to put rockets on the car - I would have done that.... but he knew what the intended purpose was - and the goal... and then only did the amount of stuff that was required to get it to that point. He could have doubled the amount of work and parts -- but his business sense says - no - that would be "cool" but wouldn't be worth the cost. That's a person that gets my recommendation and repeat business.

It's an old saying: Quick, cheap or good. You can only have two. The shops that only deliver one go out of business. Some shops just need to learn when to fire their customer.

Adding project managers and business experts won't magically make all three happen. In fact because they do not produce, it will likely cut out cheap. I don't think everyone should be able to have a car built. It used to be that if you wanted a cool car, you had to build it yourself.

I've worked in a few custom car and race shops. They all payed less than half what a decent mechanic, machinist, welder or fabricator would make, but I did all three. I got tired of it, went back to school and got an engineering degree. Now I build parts and cars on the side. I am very picky about what I do and who I do it for and I don't work cheap anymore.

Rockets? Hmmm...:idea:

:D :cheers:

Business is business to a large degree. They all have inherent challenges. X amount of dollars invested leads to x amount of potential profit. That ratio is dictated by the type of business. There are always the 20% that make it in the industry and the 80% that struggle. Blake mentions $80 an hour but there are guys in the industry that are pulling in 4-5 times? that with Greg Weld type clients. Just like the best attorney's, doctors, businesses, there's always someone making a killing in each field. It's typically not magic either. They progressively gain skills, operate with integrity, provide great customer service, and can run a business. Eventually it all snow balls into a Brizio or Ring Brothers where the demand is so high, they can pick and choose their clientele at a high rate.

Brizio's posted hourly rate is $105 an hour. Your math is a bit fuzzy....

That sounds "expensive" until you get the bills and see how QUICKLY they do a common job such as run brake and fuel lines - or build you a custom exhaust. They've done it so many times they're fast at it. In the end - THEIR shop rate is not expensive at all. What's expensive is the guy that quotes $35 an hour and takes 3 times as long and doesn't do as nice a job... or never finishes your car and you end up ripping everything they did out and paying someone else to do it over. THAT is expensive.


This is the other thing that I've come to figure out. I've built and repaired more cars than I care to remember. I've personally done all of this work. I have a ton of tools - I have all the time in the world - I have space to work in. But I can never build something as QUICKLY or as NICELY as a guy that specializes and does the same type of work day in and day out. At shops like Brizio - they have guys that only do plumbing and exhaust. Another guy does sheet metal etc. In my little shed - I have to do the brake lines - and the TIG welding and the patch panel and figure out the axle width.

When you look around at a shop like The Roadster Shop... they have specialists. They have fabulous tools... they have in house machining... they have guys with serious skills. They have two or three (IDK) guys MANAGING the shop and ordering parts and billing and maybe a guy that just drives around picking up and delivering stuff. If you're a small shop -- you have to do all of that yourself and that time costs money. There's only so many hours in a day. Can you manage the shop - do the bidding - fetch the parts - shop for parts - do the bookkeeping and payroll etc. Can you earn enough money quickly enough or have the CAPITAL to go out and buy a $16,000 Eckold Kraftformer if you need one...

Why can a shop like Brizio or The Roadster Shop or The Ring Brothers build such "EXPENSIVE" cars? Because they have the skills required -- and the customers required to foot the bills to build unlimited budget cars. People look at these cars and then gasp at the numbers thrown around.... but they don't apply the corresponding amount of hours it takes to do the enormous amount of HAND BUILT EVERYTHING.

Roy B will tell you that it took him 25 YEARS to get to where he's at, and for many years it was tough sledding.... Not sure how long it took Phil and Jeremy - but it wasn't rags to riches in 6 months.... and Ring Bros had another business and the fancy stuff was born from that.

I think most guys that are doing this line of work are doing it because they love it -- and they can eke out a living doing something they love to do. If you really asked them - they probably made a better / easier living when they just worked for someone else. BTW -- if you want to check out something where real actual MANAGEMENT is in the works -- make an appointment to tour Brian Hobaugh's body shop! Now there is a place where you could apply your (TO THE OP) productivity skills. You've never seen such a well oiled machine!

I had no idea, it was a wild ass guess. Were you charged by the hour or set window price to build it?

I know - but I had to give you some crap.

Brizio works by the hour. But they know what it costs to build this stuff. I was much closer to the higher price range of the quote... but I knew that. I added stuff and did little things here and there and it all adds up.

Thanks Greg for putting things in perspective from a clients point of view whos been there, I have so many things to say about this subject, BUT I have a shop to run. Gotta go!

I worked as a mold maker for 10 years. We built class 101 plastic injection molds for OEM's. It was a small shop with 5-7 employees, including the owner. All of the issues mentioned( project management, ordering parts, dealing with customers, bookkeeping, etc.), were handled by the owner.

I would say the two biggest issues were maintaining a profit margin and hiring and retaining skilled employees. As a highly skilled employee, there was and is easier ways to make a living. Ultimately, the business closed when our work( I had all ready left) was being outsourced to China. There are many similarities between building molds and hot rods.

I do side machining jobs for my Dad's small custom wiring shop and others. I've been involved in the car hobby since I learned to ride a bike( long time...). While it sounds romantic to strike out and just build hot rods, I know the reality of how hard it is. I am always intrigued how guys make it.

This is a fascinating read!

Tim

That's lower than I thought but it's still 25% higher than what Blake charges in St. George. Of course, you have the CA tax which probably eats up a nice chunk.

How many Greg Weld's do you have funding projects and at what consistency? It seems to me that hourly rate is important, just not as relevant as the quality and consistency of clientele.

It seems you need to find the balance that fits your skills, clientele, and bottom line. Good luck! ha

After building a custom car, I have to say that I learned a few lessons. One, there are many terrible businesses associated. Two, you are better off spending the money on quality parts, first. Third, you are better off hiring a reputable shop than bargain shopping. You end up with quality work and a bill that doesn't hurt as bad as you thought. Plus, you don't have a do over.

I can see why so many projects end in ruin. If you don't possess the skills or time to manage and work on your project, it's a serious challenge. If I ever build another car, it would be Weld style. Either you can afford to build it right or you can't.

I said for YEARS that people that had their cars built were IDIOTS... Hot rodding was about building your own sh!T..... But I've gotten so busy doing other stuff -- that it's been kinda fun building one where all I have to do is point my finger and say - let's do this or that. The experience with Steve's Auto Restoration not being one of the better experiences... but I still got a very nice hot rod out of it. It just took some extra effort. Brizio - Sutton - Pinkee's have been some of the best experiences EVER. A real pleasure!

When you pick the right builders -- it's really a fun deal to do. However... I'm working on the shed daily -- a little more gets done each day -- and that's in an effort so I can crank another one out on my own again. I love every aspect of this hobby.

I hear you buddy.. The time I had when I built my car is long gone. ha It's been replaced with great things. I think it would be fun to have one built and just use it, tweak it, and maintain it. For now, I'm focused on diapers and financial independence. :G-Dub:

Was wondering if you had it in you! Good to hear! I'll bet Kelli is on the moon about that!

Haven't read all the posts yet!! but this one struck me as all to true- Nail on the head

Sad, and makes me cry.

Chris, I'd love to get into what makes your business click and how you got there. Its a tough market but at least I have spenders around me. What is your secret.
I have on the average 6-7 simultaneous projects and getting the right quote and deposit is the hardest part since most builds take 7-8 mo to complete. Some even longer.