Consensus on big bar/soft spring?
 

I'm trying to make a decision whether I want to go big bar/soft spring, or soft bar/stiff spring. From the research I've done, I've mostly found articles pertaining to late model asphalt cars rather than autocross. From what I can understand, soft springs are good for rougher surfaces(parking lots for autocross?) and making the tires work. I intend to run c prepared(slicks) and maybe a few 200tw events. Car will be 80% at track, so ride quality is of little concern. It seems as though BBSS requires different geometry(less camber change) to accommodate increased dive, and more testing/tuning to setup, is this true? I understand its a subjective question, but which setup is best for my application?

that choice is mostly decided from training and driving style...I have driven and raced both in other cars for testing

I agree. I like a RaceCar stiff, but that is not for everybody!

So one isn't faster than the other? Why are more people switching to a BBSS setup recently?

There is a big long explanation as to why that Ron Sutton I'm sure could explain better than I, but in a simple form...having a high travel setup lets one configure the geometry to work best in all areas of a turn and the straights as well.

With a super stiff spring setup, the static geometry is what it is pretty much all of the time. You dial in camber to help the outside front tire contact patch, but completely give up the contact patch on the inside front tire.

With a front suspension that travels, you can maximise the contact patch on both front tires in a turn. Aren't two tires gripping better than one?

Watch this video to see how well a soft spring\big bar setup helps make a G-Body turn.

point definitely taken, but could you not compensate for the stiffer spring rate car by making the dynamic camber change larger for a smaller distance of travel?
Another thing I just thought of, since I intend to run c prepared and I intend to get the car as low as I can, would running a softer spring rate and higher travel limit my static ride height setting?

:idea: ohhhhhhhhhhh

ummff! know it all :BlahBlah: :lmao:

See... Just like I said... http://www.winstonsalemskyscrapers.c...ngemoticon.gif

told you:hitaxeonthehead:


im in it for the looks.

It all makes sense, like most of your posts though I need to digest it to be able to apply it :headspin:

Listening to anyone other than A 6 time CP National Champion would be rather pointless.

Therefore, contact Mike Maier of Mike Maier Inc. He's leaving for Wisconsin tomorrow for Optima Event at Road America but will be back in the office on Tuesday. He'll then be leaving again later next week fo the SCCA solo National in Lincoln Nebraska where if he wins, he'll hold the record for most overall National Championships in CP with 7. Right now he's tied for the most.

pointless? Not following.

Auto cross road course and street all tune different. In my opinion Auto x is a completely different animal when it comes to tuning and suspension design.

With the technology in chassis rigidity, shock tuning, shock valving and accurate spring rates going on now you can get away with less bar. Let your geometry work.

I totally agree autocross setup is different than any other form of Motorsports.

Ron, how many SCCA autocross nationals champions are using your setup or advice? Who?


Scott Fraser

easy scooter! Ron's pretty new to the autocross culture....give him a few and we will see top cars using his designs and theory's another 2 or 3 years...hey a title isn't everything, i know a guy who has a national champ win (trophy and record books to prove it) and he was in a class of one so he won by default, and you look at his times for the event he was slower than novice ladies last placer.....but hey he can still claim a title as an SCCA National Champion and you know me Scott and I don't have that claim...and I can still point you in the right direction when your building your car

big bar/soft spring?

for me...I run my 68 Camaro with 800 lb front springs and the DSE sway bar...my upper control arms pivot point has been moved from stock (modified Guldstrand) and that creates a jacking effect so essentially my car is in camber moment at all times...the lower control arm has the shock mount moved closer to the ball joint than standard arms....and the triple adjust front shocks i have run a digressive piston....on the rear I run a 325 spring and the triple adjust rear shocks i have run a digressive piston, I use the Helwig Protour rear bar....the weight of my car is 3150 with full interior, radio, heater and Cage the engine is a 6.0 LS.....

my set up is big bar/medium spring


hope that helps

Ron comes here and offers his knowledge, and you berate him, nice work. :EmoteClueless:

The OP specificly said he'd be running C prepared, or CP as I put it. So yeah, talking to anyone other than a 6 time national CP Champion is in my mind pointless.

Also, Mike took his "autocross" setup to Sears Point for the Shelby Nationals and was in the top 5 of times but was the only one in the top 5 on a 200tw tire. So, in my option autocross, road racing and street driving can all use the same suspension settings.

Comparing Mikes 6 CP national championships to "some guy" who won by default is a slap in the face to Mike. CP for the longest time was one of the most contested classes at an SCCA National Finals event. His wins were far from a one person class...

Berate how? He simply asked a simple question as to who is national competitive in an autocross environment running his setup.

:tv_happy: :catfight: :lmao:

As national Dog day was yesterday I'm not going to do any leash tugging today. I'll let the pro's do that. :lmao:

Having dialed in a couple Solo I, Solo II, drag race and big track high speed turnie cars in my day I'll stick to my opinion. None of which were National Champions or Saviours of Nazereth mind you but most improved over base. :captain1:

Chetly, your fanboism always comes off snobbish and rude. Mike is a smart guy, anyone that has talked to him knows that.

Your advice is good though. If I wanted a CP Mustang, Maier would be the first call I would make, but it wouldn't be the only homework I did.

better untie your panties "chetly" I am not putting Mike down...Mike and myself go way back...unless you know me shut your pie hole. The point was "titles" if you have them or dont doesn't make the answer right or wrong.... if your going to act like a key board warrior at least use your real name if you have something relevant to add then do so other wise move along...I think everyone here knows me in the real world I'm not just some forum jockey and I will be straight foreword, I dont toss around keyboard balls son I have brass ones....

Big words from someone across the country. As for your stupid key board warrior comment, my friends do call my Chet or Chetly so I am using my real name. But, just in case you want to shut my pie hole for me I'll gladly send you my address and I'll gladly place my steel toe boots firmly against your brass ones...

Fanboism? I'm just stating facts that I know as true. Yes, Mike and I are good friends. So what. That's not fanboism.

After the way you act, I'm not sure if Mike would be impressed with being associated.

Opinions vary, thanks for yours.

I don't understand how people call me a fanboi for recommending talking to Mike when the OP originally asked about suspension for a class that Mike has dominated for the last 8-10 years.

Yet, when people recommend Ron Sutton for anything that's perfectly fine. Sounds like there is some people around here are fanbois of Ron as well.

To each their own...

:lmao:

:catfight: :lmao: :catfight: :lmao: Next time you are in town Rod let me know, I'll bring the blanket! :lmao: Chet, get your car ready we are gonna have a drive off. :bitchslap: :stirthepot: :snapout: :lmao: :lmao:

I had to take a step back and make sure I wasn't on C-C or AR15.com.

That's some good stuff Chet. :lol: We have all done business with Mike Chett and value his knowledge but WTF, should we just push all of our tool boxes and cheat sheet into the bay? Im gonna quote you as much as I can so you can stop back peddling with this editing.

Like a two day old tuna sandwich in my truck parked in Dublin. You come off a bit strong. just sayin

i'd be a tad embarrassed myself. actually I am right now.

It's your tone. You come across as an arrogant nut hugger/leg humper. Notch it down and folks will listen to what you have to say. You are doing your friend Mike a huge disservice.

Don

Chetly, please man. Everybody knows Mike and loves him. We know you do too.

Making an argument in your favor by knocking another is simply deflection from the real issue being discussed. My high school girlfriend taught me that.

What are we fighting about, err discussing again? :military:

'arrogant nut hugging leg humper' :lmao: :lmao:

Mind if I borrow that sometime Don?

ahhh that was a Yodi-ism .....those that remember cringe, those that don't feel blessed. :tv_happy:

Everyone knows I'm running a tempered version of a big bar soft spring setup and while I don't have any National titles under my name yet, I have had more than 1 multiple time national title holders mention to me after watching my car run in person that my car is faster than it should be.

Does that count? :stirthepot:

I also don't believe that Ron is the only one using this type of setup. Watch a Cup car run at just about any small track or road course and watch the front suspension for more than just a couple laps then get back to the class here about what you see going on.

That doesn't mean that a big spring soft bar setup is wrong either, it's just a whole 'nother animal. If someone wants to run it, I say go for it. Nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head. It'll be settled out on the track...eventually.