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-   -   DSE vs. SpeedTech Performance. . . (https://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52246)

atomicjoe23 02-10-2016 03:43 PM
DSE vs. SpeedTech Performance. . .
 
Has anyone seen a no BS real comparison between these two companies products???

Like DSE's A-arm set-up vs. SpeedTech's A-arm set-up, or a direct, real world (same car/driver, same tires, same rear suspension so that all you are comparing are the differences between the companies front end packages) comparison between the two subframes (or three now that there is the ExtremeR subframe SpeedTech)?

It's easy to look at the pictures and read the text, but trying to figure out which subframe or suspension set-up you want is frustrating if you can't compare apples to apples. . .

. . .just wondering if anyone knows if such a test has been done.

Thanks!

98ssnova 02-10-2016 04:33 PM
Super chevy online they have tested them countless times. Mari Pozzi as the driver. Also search this forum alot of info here comparing the 2. If you are really looking for a hardcover race set-up contact Ron Sutton he specializes in that stuff. Either one can go wrong DSE or Speed Tech are bad ass and have a great industry rep.

atomicjoe23 02-10-2016 06:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 98ssnova (Post 629591)
If you are really looking for a hardcover race set-up contact Ron Sutton he specializes in that stuff.
I've read (and re-read. . .and am currently re-reading again) his threads on handling and suspension. . .

. . .he helped SpeedTech Performance with the new ExtremeR subframe. . .

badazz81z28 02-10-2016 07:22 PM
I have Detroit Speed and have in person seen Speed Tech products to include the new subframes...bottom line not apples to apples comparison. Speed Tech does have some advantages to include price, but DSE has a larger product line to compliment their set-ups.

Blake Foster 02-11-2016 09:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by badazz81z28 (Post 629614)
I have Detroit Speed and have in person seen Speed Tech products to include the new subframes...bottom line not apples to apples comparison. Speed Tech does have some advantages to include price, but DSE has a larger product line to compliment their set-ups.
I would agree at this time not an Apples comparison. if you look at the numbers on paper the new ExtReme subframe is a lot more aggressive, adjustable and uses a much better Rack. (all be it at less profit for Speedtech)

I would just want to question you on that statement? the part about "DSE having more product to compliment their set up."

Speedtech has EVERYTHING you could need including some parts that DSE does not have like oil pans,

I will let you know that we are about to also release a new
ExtReme Torque arm front mount that also integrates a drive shaft loop and subframe connectors. this will be a very good upgrade that really no one else has.

thanks for the props as well :cheers:

atomicjoe23 02-11-2016 10:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake Foster (Post 629647)
I would just want to question you on that statement? the part about "DSE having more product to compliment their set up."
I was curious about this also. . .I know that SpeedTech doesn't have leaf spring parts (first gen F-bodies), but that is one of the only things I have noticed they don't have. I also noticed the standard UCA's don't have adjustable caster inserts like the DSE UCA's have, but the new ExtReme arms seem to address that.

One thing that I do like about SpeedTech vs. DSE is that SpeedTech offers the ATS spindles as a stand alone purchase. . .the only way you can purchase the DSE spindle is as part of a subframe purchase, but the DSE UCA's have the adjustable caster inserts while the SpeedTech UCA's you can purchase (without buying the ExtReme subframe. . .as of right now anyway) don't have caster inserts.

I'm leaning towards SpeedTech's ExtReme subframe as of right now (although I probably won't be purchasing a subframe until this winter or maybe next winter at the latest).

badazz81z28 02-11-2016 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake Foster (Post 629647)
I would agree at this time not an Apples comparison. if you look at the numbers on paper the new ExtReme subframe is a lot more aggressive, adjustable and uses a much better Rack. (all be it at less profit for Speedtech)

I would just want to question you on that statement? the part about "DSE having more product to compliment their set up."

Speedtech has EVERYTHING you could need including some parts that DSE does not have like oil pans,

I will let you know that we are about to also release a new
ExtReme Torque arm front mount that also integrates a drive shaft loop and subframe connectors. this will be a very good upgrade that really no one else has.

thanks for the props as well :cheers:

You can practically build a car out of a DSE catalog. They offer everything from sub-frame bushings, PS hoses, headers, mini-tubs, rearends, etc.

DSE's biggest downfall is price. The best thing going for them is the proven track record. The cars perform very well.

I would have bought the Speed Tech 2nd Gen frame, but at the time there was no solid release date. Its all the little preferences here and there.

atomicjoe23 02-11-2016 10:28 AM
I forgot about the mini-tubs. . .that's on my short list. . .

. . .I also forgot about all the body stuff (core closeout, hood latch and receptacle, firewall closeouts, etc. . . .

Blake Foster 02-11-2016 10:30 AM
[QUOTE=badazz81z28;629655]You can practically build a car out of a DSE catalog. They offer everything from sub-frame bushings, PS hoses, headers, mini-tubs, rearends, etc.

Same here, I can sell you almost any part you will need, Engines Transmissions, brake line kits, headers, exhaust parts, Cooling systems, front drives, brakes , wheels, tires, fuel systems, and they are all the parts we USE in our builds so we know what fits and works together as well.

don't tell everyone but I can even sell the DSE mini tubs

atomicjoe23 02-11-2016 10:38 AM
I haven't talked with DSE, but I can say the customer service at SpeedTech (at least from my experience) has been FANTASTIC!!!

hifi875 02-11-2016 10:50 AM
both are great companies. wouldn't hesitate to buy from either and have used both of their parts.

badazz81z28 02-11-2016 11:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicjoe23 (Post 629660)
I haven't talked with DSE, but I can say the customer service at SpeedTech (at least from my experience) has been FANTASTIC!!!
Same at DSE. Although recently it has slumped for me. Trying to get info out of them for a wheel on these wheels and not much help.

badazz81z28 02-11-2016 11:51 AM
[QUOTE=Blake Foster;629659]
Quote:
Originally Posted by badazz81z28 (Post 629655)
You can practically build a car out of a DSE catalog. They offer everything from sub-frame bushings, PS hoses, headers, mini-tubs, rearends, etc.

Same here, I can sell you almost any part you will need, Engines Transmissions, brake line kits, headers, exhaust parts, Cooling systems, front drives, brakes , wheels, tires, fuel systems, and they are all the parts we USE in our builds so we know what fits and works together as well.

don't tell everyone but I can even sell the DSE mini tubs
Blake, I just looked at the website and even if you do have it, its not listed. Usually I just assume you don't have something if its not listed. I don't see things like tubs, headers, x-members etc listed under the 70-81 Camaro tab.

PM coming

Vega$69 02-11-2016 12:10 PM
You can get lots of parts from lots of different people.

Depends to some extent what your budget is and more importantly how you intend to use the car.

To try to say which is the better subframe. Well if you just street cruising neither one in better then an upgraded stock. If you're full on Optima Street Challenge then that's another story.

When looking at race results it does not appear that any one manufacturer is dominating.

I have Speedtech front and DSE Quadralink rear. Works perfect for me.

badazz81z28 02-11-2016 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vega$69 (Post 629671)
You can get lots of parts from lots of different people.

Depends to some extent what your budget is and more importantly how you intend to use the car.

To try to say which is the better subframe. Well if you just street cruising neither one in better then an upgraded stock. If you're full on Optima Street Challenge then that's another story.

When looking at race results it does not appear that any one manufacturer is dominating.

I have Speedtech front and DSE Quadralink rear. Works perfect for me.
Depends on what you compare. If you look at overall results, the newer cars are dominating lol.

But comparing Sec Gen Camaros/Firebird with different brand parts. In that case DSE is dominating on the track. Of course you cant compare overall winners because more than the suspension brand parts plays a role.

Blake Foster 02-11-2016 12:41 PM
[QUOTE=badazz81z28;629667]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake Foster (Post 629659)

Blake, I just looked at the website and even if you do have it, its not listed. Usually I just assume you don't have something if its not listed. I don't see things like tubs, headers, x-members etc listed under the 70-81 Camaro tab.

PM coming
PM received.

I think you need glasses :computer: (I know I do)
lol
We show a lot of different parts but they are maybe Generic as there are sometimes so many options that we really need to talk about it to get the right stuff, rather than having one Fuel tank listed for example we show that we have fuel tanks, but with all the engine and pump options I would rather you call us to figure it out than have you chose from 2 we may have on the site and then not be 100% happy with what you got.

Make sense?

Same with Engines and wheels WAY TOO MANY OPTIONS to list 3 on the site

98ssnova 02-11-2016 01:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake Foster (Post 629647)
I would agree at this time not an Apples comparison. if you look at the numbers on paper the new ExtReme subframe is a lot more aggressive, adjustable and uses a much better Rack. (all be it at less profit for Speedtech)

I would just want to question you on that statement? the part about "DSE having more product to compliment their set up."

Speedtech has EVERYTHING you could need including some parts that DSE does not have like oil pans,

I will let you know that we are about to also release a new
ExtReme Torque arm front mount that also integrates a drive shaft loop and subframe connectors. this will be a very good upgrade that really no one else has.

thanks for the props as well :cheers:
what is this torque arm upgrade.....

Blake Foster 02-11-2016 04:49 PM
This is the newest addition to the ExtReme Product line,
Right now it is for 67-69 Camaros. It will be cut into the floor under the seat pan (you will need to remove the seat pan) fit mid way into the tunnel and full width rocker to rocker. Then the subframe connectors fit 1/2 way into the floor pan and into the rear spring perch location. The torque arm mount will be removable and that part will form a drive shaft loop as well. we will have a version that does not have a torque arm mount if you are just wanting to retrofit an existing rear suspension. it will not impede the exhaust any more than the trans X member.
Still working out final pricing and install instructions.

[IMG]http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/...psilrbqp0i.jpg[/IMG]

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/...psilrbqp0i.jpg

TheJDMan 02-11-2016 09:30 PM
For me the decision to go with DSE over Speedtech came down to front steer vs rear steer. At the time I installed my subframe DSE was the only front steer available. Today of course Speedtech has their new extreme subframe with front steer. I also like the DSE hydroformed frame rails which is unique in the aftermarket.

atomicjoe23 02-12-2016 11:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake Foster (Post 629719)
This is the newest addition to the ExtReme Product line,
Right now it is for 67-69 Camaros. It will be cut into the floor under the seat pan (you will need to remove the seat pan) fit mid way into the tunnel and full width rocker to rocker. Then the subframe connectors fit 1/2 way into the floor pan and into the rear spring perch location. The torque arm mount will be removable and that part will form a drive shaft loop as well. we will have a version that does not have a torque arm mount if you are just wanting to retrofit an existing rear suspension. it will not impede the exhaust any more than the trans X member.
Still working out final pricing and install instructions.

[IMG]http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/...psilrbqp0i.jpg[/IMG]

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/...psilrbqp0i.jpg
I like that. . .I had been leaning towards designing and building an offset, de-coupled 3-link rear suspension using a Watt's linkage, but I may change my mind and go with a torque arm now. . .

Blake Foster 02-12-2016 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicjoe23 (Post 629783)
I like that. . .I had been leaning towards designing and building an offset, de-coupled 3-link rear suspension using a Watt's linkage, but I may change my mind and go with a torque arm now. . .
SEE NOW your THINKING!!!

atomicjoe23 02-12-2016 03:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake Foster (Post 629719)
So is this going to be available as a total ExtReme Rear Torque Arm kit?

Also, is the removable front torque arm mount (that forms part of the driveshaft loop) replace the version in what is now the "standard" rear torque arm suspension?

98ssnova 02-12-2016 05:37 PM
Will this work with the existing set up? I remember you said when the extreme sub released you had no plans of change the torque arm.

califconstruct 02-12-2016 08:40 PM
.

:ohsnap:

That ExtReme Rear Torque Arm looks interesting. a seems a bit involved for my skill level for installation, but nothing Richie can't handle.
Warhawk is looking for a new rear setup hear in the near future. :relax:


.

JKnight 02-12-2016 10:20 PM
I'm no expert on either, but the installation seems similar to the Lateral Dynamics 3-link of old.

atomicjoe23 02-12-2016 10:56 PM
Hey CalifConsruct. . .what's the buggy in the background of your profile pic???

You on Race_Dezert.com???

Blake Foster 02-13-2016 09:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicjoe23 (Post 629798)
So is this going to be available as a total ExtReme Rear Torque Arm kit?

Also, is the removable front torque arm mount (that forms part of the driveshaft loop) replace the version in what is now the "standard" rear torque arm suspension?
yes it will replace the existing/current but both will be available.
this is an OPTIONAL front mount with the full width cross member and subframe connectors.

Blake Foster 02-13-2016 09:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 98ssnova (Post 629805)
Will this work with the existing set up? I remember you said when the extreme sub released you had no plans of change the torque arm.
Yes in a 67-69 Camaro. not in a Nova YET. the nova floor has different cross braces in it so we need to do a completely different one for that car

we have not changed the torque arm at all we have don some improvements in the material we use it is now made from Domex which is a ballistic resistant material. plus we have added some more mounting plates to the upper rear cross member to allow it to be mounted through the trunk floor for added integrity

Blake Foster 02-13-2016 09:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by califconstruct (Post 629829)
.

:ohsnap:

That ExtReme Rear Torque Arm looks interesting. a seems a bit involved for my skill level for installation, but nothing Richie can't handle.
Warhawk is looking for a new rear setup hear in the near future. :relax:


.
Well it is more involved obviously than our current on BUT no more difficult than the DSE subframe connectors just more, it ties the entire floor together in 2 directions and provides better exhaust clearance and a drive shaft loop.

Ron Sutton 02-13-2016 11:42 AM
IMHO ...

The DSE, Art Morrison, Roadster Shop & Speedtech front clips are all well built & include quality components.

After measuring & running calcs on all of them, I'm clear they each have good bump steer & camber gain.

The notable differences (advantages) of the Speedtech eXtreme clips & frames are:
* 100% Ackerman for increased grip on inside front tire.
* A spindle custom designed for this suspension ... not the other way around.
* Roll Center above ground in dynamic conditions ... and in exact optimum location ... for increased front end grip ... and corner entry stability.
* Fits 315 front tires with clearance for 30° of steering.
* Increased caster capacity for optimum tire contact patches on both front tires. (Slugged for 7° to 9° static caster ... plus 0.6°-2.0° caster gain in dive).
* A real racing power steering rack from Sweet ($900) ... with dual power to live forever & excel at turning sticky 315's ... instead of reproduction/remanufactured production car rack from Mavel ($300).
* 3-piece race style front sway bar with Speedway Engineering chromoly bars offering a range of rates from 400# to 1300#.
* Lastly is the option to come with Ridetech or JRI shocks with digressive pistons & my modern secret sauce, high grip valving.


:patriot:

.

badazz81z28 02-13-2016 01:01 PM
Fitting a 315 on that frame is pretty awesome

TheJDMan 02-13-2016 07:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by badazz81z28 (Post 629873)
Fitting a 315 on that frame is pretty awesome
But the trade-off is less header clearance due to the frame rails being located further inboard to allow room for that 315.

ironworks 02-13-2016 08:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJDMan (Post 629890)
But the trade-off is less header clearance due to the frame rails being located further inboard to allow room for that 315.
I'm sure the frame on the Speedtech is alittle narrower, but the bigger issue is just the header and steering shaft. The Camaro we are doing is tight on the headers with the stock position steering shaft. The frame is just narrower in that area over the DSE sub. With the UCA position of the Speedtech makes it a battle. But that geometry position is the gain in clean slate design.

Granted we have Porto type LT4 headers but it's not much different over the LS headers. Plus the steering column has the electric power assist so that add a few variables.

But doesn't change much at all.

Blake Foster 02-15-2016 08:14 AM
YES the steering and headers are TIGHT. but they do work, we have a couple in the shop right now having everything installed including RedZed, Rogers 69. and it is all working out as planned. the port location on the LT is slightly different from what I have seen also.

We can supply all the parts column, shaft kit, headers that all work together.

Build-It-Break-it 02-15-2016 09:16 AM
Blake can you post up a couple of pics of the steering shaft to header clearance on the extreme subframe?

gerno 02-15-2016 10:42 AM
Blake - I hear you have the 1st get headers done. When can you post up some pics of the 2nd Gen headers fitted up. I spoke to you near X-mas and you seemed to be close to having them ready. Any update? I'm interested to see the overall fitment but mostly the ground clearance since that's a huge issue for 2nd Gen cars.

Blake Foster 02-15-2016 04:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerno (Post 630010)
Blake - I hear you have the 1st get headers done. When can you post up some pics of the 2nd Gen headers fitted up. I spoke to you near X-mas and you seemed to be close to having them ready. Any update? I'm interested to see the overall fitment but mostly the ground clearance since that's a huge issue for 2nd Gen cars.
GROUND CLEARANCE!! Exactly. we decided to do a 3/4 length header for that very reason. in testing Ultimate tells me they are only 10hp down on some of there 3/4 length VS full length. I figured that was acceptable as full length headers that are SMASHED not only look and sound bad but are probably worse the 10hp Plus the customer isn't happy.

I HATE headers that hang down this way you will be able to run a 3" tube as close to the floor as possible the Trans cross member will be the deciding factor but at that point oval tubing would be the answer.

Blake Foster 02-15-2016 04:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Build-It-Break-it (Post 629996)
Blake can you post up a couple of pics of the steering shaft to header clearance on the extreme subframe?
Tomorrow!! Rogers is all mocked up and just about finished.

badazz81z28 02-16-2016 07:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Sutton (Post 629871)
IMHO ...

The DSE, Art Morrison, Roadster Shop & Speedtech front clips are all well built & include quality components.

After measuring & running calcs on all of them, I'm clear they each have good bump steer & camber gain.

The notable differences (advantages) of the Speedtech eXtreme clips & frames are:
* 100% Ackerman for increased grip on inside front tire.
* A spindle custom designed for this suspension ... not the other way around.
* Roll Center above ground in dynamic conditions ... and in exact optimum location ... for increased front end grip ... and corner entry stability.
* Fits 315 front tires with clearance for 30° of steering.
* Increased caster capacity for optimum tire contact patches on both front tires. (Slugged for 7° to 9° static caster ... plus 0.6°-2.0° caster gain iin dive).
* A real racing power steering rack from Sweet ($900) ... with dual power to live forever & excel at turning sticky 315's ... instead of reproduction/remanufactured production car rack from Mavel ($300).
* 3-piece race style front sway bar with Speedway Engineering chromoly bars offering a range of rates from 400# to 1300#.
* Lastly is the option to come with Ridetech or JRI shocks with digressive pistons & my modern secret sauce, high grip valving.


:patriot:

.

Proof is on the pavement, not a sheet of paper. I'm Really excited to see a comparable year/model cars compete to show which handles better. I wouldn't be so quick to say anything negative about C5/C6 spindles or OEM steering racks. If it works, it works. Modern cars especially vettss are kicking butt out there at the autocross

Vince@Meanstreets 02-16-2016 09:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by badazz81z28 (Post 630183)
Proof is on the pavement, not a sheet of paper. I'm Really excited to see a comparable year/model cars compete to show which handles better. I wouldn't be so quick to say anything negative about C5/C6 spindles or OEM steering racks. If it works, it works. Modern cars especially vettss are kicking butt out there at the autocross
Ideally a sheet of paper is where it all starts.

true but just bolting on a system designed well for another chassis and platform does not usually translate very well to all or other platforms. Same goes for racks, just because the "fit" doesn't make them optimum. :stirthepot:


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