I give up with brake bleeding
 

My build is below and I will tell you its not my first build but the most frustrating. I have a Wilwood manual MC and it was bench bled before being attached. I have zero leaks which took a while. I used the mity vac to bleed the calibers but I was getting tiny air bubbles which I thought was from the connection with the hose. I went through a lot of brake fluid but still had bubbles but not the typical air in the system. I put the speed bleeders back on and bled them again. The pedal is still soft. To add salt in my wound I started the car which is on jacks and put it into second gear and stepped on the brake pedal only to watch it continue to spin. I am truly at a loss. This is the first time I have used a Manual Wilwood setup and help out there will be much appreciated. Thanks :bur2:

https://lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=44704

If you remove the lines on the master and plug the ports will it build pressure and give you a firm pedal?

Don

yes I had the plugs in after bench bleeding the MC and when I hooked it up to the pedal I could barely move the pedal. I noticed when I was bleeding it the reservoir went down a lot faster in the front than the rear. Volume was low coming out the rears. As I was pulling the brake fluid with the Mity vac they were the same.

maybe try bleeding it backwards. put a hose on the bleeder into fresh fluid, and install your mighty vac at the lines at the master cylinder. ive also had good luck with making a master cylinder cap, and adding a fitting to the top so i can lightly pressurize the master cylinder 15-20 psi to help push fluid threw. you can also try pluging the master cylinder ports one at a time to see if its a problem with the front, or rear.

I have had good success with a Phoenix reverse bleeder I picked up on eBay.

Don

I was thinking of plugging the MC one at a time and heard a lot about the phoenix V-12 bleeder. Hate to spend $200 or the price of the MC. Maybe chuck Wilwood and go elsewhere.

Plugging one side at a time is a good idea. It doesn't sound like the master is the issue at this point.

Are you running stainless brake lines? They can be a b*tch to seal. Maybe try some conical seals.

Don

Not SS just steel. I do have a wildwood Proportional valve inline to the rear should that be adjusted one way or the other? I am also going to shorten the rod today maybe its not coming back far enough?? also no leaks at all. Thanks

Prop valve should be adjusted for max rear brake. The direction you turn it is counterintuitive so look at the knob carefully. AMHIK... :lol:

Don

ok after 1 1/2 hrs of bleeding the brakes the old fashion way the fronts have no air in them at all and work with very little pedal. The rears just when I think they do not have air in them I try to stop the rear wheels to stop at idle and I can stop them but it requires the pedal to the floor. Not good I rebleed them and the same thing. I think I will stop for a while and see if a shop around here has a good bleed tool and can do them. My head is flat from beating it against the wall

I've had this problem recently. I was getting the very fine bubbles with my vacuum bleeder. I removed the bleeders from the caliper, and put red wheel bearing grease on the threads of the bleeders liberally. I did this at each corner, and had a perfect pedal in 45 minutes. The ultra fine bubbles were coming from the bleeder screws threads. I went and purchased a new vacuum bleeder during the process, thinking I had an issue with the bleeder. Just about drove me crazy...

Thanks I am seeing that in the rear calibers but the fronts have no air at all. The calibers move each time we pump the brakes but just no bit and the pedal is sift

Which Phoenix bleeder did you pick up and what method worked for you? Thanks

This one. I just push fluid from the calipers back to the master.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Phoenix-Syst...8AAOSwCGVX2GMH

Don

Don was this the vender you bought it from, $134 is a lot cheaper than Jegs at $184.

Just ordered it from Jegs they matched the price. We will see

Well I reverse bled my rear brakes with my new phoenix brake bleeding system, no air bubbles after a few pumps and the pedal is soft like when I start to back up, 1/2 mph the pedal goes to the floor and is very soft and the car keeps rolling. I give up will need someone to fix it. I have never had a problem in my other builds.:waveflag:

Did you stop after a few pumps? You need to push fluid all the way through the system and a couple of pumps won't do that. I try to push a half pint or more from each caliper.

Don

Don I pushed a lot of fluid through until there were no more bubbles. I did take a pause after 3-4 pumps since the reservoir would fill up. This is not rocket science nor my first build but it is kicking my ass. There must be air in the master that I am unable to flush. The fronts we bled the old fashion way and the air went out quickly. The front end was slightly higher but I caught that before we bled the rears so the reservoir is level, the rear is higher than the front. Thanks I will call Wilwood again.

I will try bleeding the MC one more time but not with their plastic fittings but with std brake lines and have them go back into the reservoir

I've personally encountered two bad Wilwood master cylinders (brand new) and heard of many others that just won't ever bleed out. All were exchanged for another that worked, but I have little confidence in them. I'd bet that a different MC with the same bench bleed process you used would get a good pedal.

Thanks this is my second MC from them. I will give it one more time

Oh, geeze, didn't realize that. Was the first one bad as well? Similar issues?

The first one would not seal at the rear fittings and I went through 3 brake lines and still leaked (wept) at the fitting.

ok bled the heck out this MC and no air so I will reverse bleed the system tomorrow.

im going to buy stock in brake fluid. hopefully reverse bleeding it finally works. may have to go with a nice rusty gm master cylinder if it doesnt work.

Well, sounds promising. I used a cheapo CPP master and was pleasantly shocked at how quickly the system bled out. Sounds like getting a master with no issues is going to be the key to your system working out.

was it manual or assisted?

I have power brakes, vacuum assisted. Bled using the old pump pump hold method, engine off obviously.

I didn't go back to read the whole thread but HOPE that you bench bleed these Masters before installing --- it's a critical step.

I did thanks

No air in the master cylinder and reverse bled all four corners and no air. I have brakes just not sure how much since I only moved the car back and forth in the garage since the steering wheel is not attached. That said the pedal feels soft as my power brakes. I have not driven a manual brake system since 77 but I thought it would certainly take more pressure to stop it. Wilwood said to go with the 15/16ths bore for my car with C4 brakes but I noticed that the C3 manual master cylinders are 1 inch bore.... I might just said @@#$% Wilwood and go to a plan old master cylinder for the C3. This is not rocket science and not my first build but my first with Wilwood. Thanks for your comments

Yep - the smaller the bore - the more pressure it will make - but the softer the pedal will be....

However -- You also haven't bedded the pads/rotors..... and just pushing on the pedal isn't going to be real world pedal feel.

You can ALWAYS change the master if you don't like it once it's on the road.

Thanks Greg this has been painful but I appreciate your advice. Do you think it would get firmer after the pads and rotors are bedded?

That's impossible to tell via the internet -- but my guess is -- you're pushing on the brakes far harder than they probably need to be pushed on - until you're actually driving.... and then if you don't like them - change out the master to a 1" or whatever it needs to be. I just don't think you're going to get real brake feel sitting in the garage.

thanks

Vstol do you have an update ?

Have you tested the system for leaks? Put moderate pressure on the pedal for 3 minutes and it should stay rock solid and the pedal should not drop at all.

I will get it on the road soon as I just got my appraisal and insurance approved.

Just got on the road for the first time and not over 30 and the brakes are poor. Again new pads, rotors etc but still I should have better stopping power, I will go out again tomorrow. As it is they are not safe. Kevin