Retired SCCA car vs ProTouring for Track Day
 

So I'm thinking about getting a retired SCCA Camaro or Mustang race car from the American Sedan or CMC series to be a dedicated track car. Probably a late 80's to mid 90's model. I have a 70 Camaro that was kind of built by previous owner to do track days and I have done a couple with it. But as usual it doesn't have the cooling ducts, oil coolers, and safety equipment to run some of the tracks. I live 3 hours away from Road America and that is one fast track. I guess my main thing is the safety side of it ( cage, fuel cell, etc. ) that you get with a race car.

So have any of you made this jump are you satisfied that you did it ? Any experiences you care to share will be welcomed. Did you find it to be more cost effective relative to your PT car ?

Thanks

A new friend of mine recently bought this car and uses it for track days and he is having a blast with it.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/i-v...SC08010-XL.jpg

The price to fun ratio is off the charts in favor when going this route vs trying to track your nice street car. I won't say I'm ready to go that direction just yet, but it is tempting for sure.

Yep, I'm seeing camaro / mustang race cars for everywhere from 8K to 18K. I haven't looked at any yet so not sure what one can get. One thing I think we have to alert to is how wore out is the car. Meaning if the motor or drivetrain needs refreshing then the cost goes up in hurry.

Great topic! I know of a couple guys here on the west coast that have done what you’re thinking. Take a look over in the race car threads and check out the two mustangs, both Dave and Rob bought used race cars and haven’t looked back.

I’ve gone a different route and purchased a cheap mustang that I can drive and bolt inexpensive parts on to make it handle and stop better. I found a few nice caged and “set up” track cars in the 7-12k range but like mentioned, the running gear is an unknown.

If you want to race, get a race car. :king:

Agreed, but track days are not races. They are for the enjoyment of driving the road courses safely at speed. My pursuit of safety is from watching all of the inexperienced people buying new high hp cars and bringing them to the tracks and pushing to the limit. I've been to many track events and seen new high powered cars having off track incidents. Just recently at my local track on the same day during the first sessions in the morning new camaro and a new mustang had off tracks. The camaro jumped the guard rail and went into the trees. Air bags saved the driver and he walked away. Destroyed the car. This was on a little 1.9 mi 14 turn track. Now lets all go to Road America and envision what goes on with the 600 hp plus cars running there with speeds above 150 on the straights with only a factory seat belt. :underchair: I have seen corvettes due off tracks at R.A. for various reasons with one guy being air lifted out to the hospital. Lets have fun but safely.

:popcorn2:

Track days are races in my opinion. I've been there with a high powered pro-touring car. Looking back, it wasn't very smart. If things went wrong, my car wasn't safe enough and the huge investment was gone due to no insurance on the track.

After building a pro-touring car and driving/racing it a bunch, I'm now of the opinion that I would build a race car OR a street car. You simply can't do both well in the same package. And their are many compromises in drivability and safety on one side or the other.

There’s a name for guys like you....lol

I'm the Dave mentioned a few posts up. After throwing tons of money into a mostly running 68 Camaro (still in progress) I decided to wise up and buy something exactly as you allude to.

I bought a well put together (but untested) LS powered Fox Mustang. Great foundation and the majority of the safety stuff is already there.

Ran it twice so far (Sonoma and Laguna Seca) and it is a hoot. Just incredible value for barely into 5 figures. Heck, that gets you some wheels, tires and brakes in the pro touring world. :waveflag:

I am still trying to figure out how to finish my Camaro -- it's headed toward full race car but I am keeping it street legal and registered to be able to cruise around occasionally.

I don't disagree with Todd on that point (track car for track days, PT car for street driving) but I think there is something to be said for be able to drive a wicked track car on the street once in awhile. To each his own there.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-...-RvzgpGq-M.jpg

Taking your nice Pro-Touring car to the track is neat but it is also really hard on the car. Cheaper to buy a 20K race car that costs less than the paint and body work on many Pro-Touring cars. You need the space to house two cars though. You also feel better about beating the crap out of a race car versus the car you just built to perfection.

Funny. Lotta truth to that.

BUT... I have been to track days before AND after becoming a father. I can tell you I am a different and more disciplined (cautious) driver after fathering 2 kids.

I bet you might agree.... get your ass back on to a track sometime soon. :D

Hi Dave,

I read about your experience in the Race Car section. Looks like a nice ride for the track. I saw some of the guys giving you the raspberries about alot of shifting, so I watched your in car video what struck me was how fast it was rpm'ing. Does it have low rear gear ratio?

So since you've made this transition any pointers on what to watch out for in the search for a track car ?

You are competing against the clock and the times of others. It's almost as dangerous when egos get involved which they almost always do. If your brakes go out at the end of the front stretch, it doesn't matter if you are wheel to wheel or not.

I'm with you these days, safety first. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

What to look for in a track car, that’s a loaded question.

#1 build quality. A poorly built race car isn’t safe. If you see one item that is sloppy then be prepared to find more and more and more.

A current log book and tech inspection from SCCA or NASA means at least somebody inspected the car and hopefully it actually meets the sanctioning bodys safety specs. Not all inspectors are the same so this isn’t a guarentee but it’s better than buying a PT car that has no tech requirement.

Look at the cage and the quality of the welds. Start by looking to ensure the welds go around the full perimeter of where the tubes join. This is a requirement for cage safety and if not done a sign of other short cuts.

Belts, fuel cells and some seats have freshness dating. If those parts are not within the cert timeframe the rest of the car is probably worn out.

Typically it is better to pay a little more for a professionally built car unless you plan on taking on another build project.

What car? There is no absolute answer but here is my opinion.

You gotta have a V8. Who wants anything without V8 torque and sound for a track car? A Miata is probably the most cost effective track car and ine of the best training tools but it’s a Miata so pass. But if you want a lot of track time with less garage time then the less exotic the motor the better. Big hp is great but big hp wears out parts way faster. All parts. Remember the purchase price is the cheapest part of this equation. You have to maintain the car and keep it running. Good oiling and proper cooling are a must so if these systems don’t seem like overkill then pass.

I’m not familiar with SCCA classes but in NASA a nice American V8 TT car or an American Iron or American Iron Extreme car would fit the bill. The Factory Five Cobra class cars look like a blast.

Just bolting on expensive parts doesn’t guarentee the car works. If the car you buy has some pedigree (as in it has documented race wins or low lap times) at least you have a chance that the setup under the car works. A car that handles predicably is priority one. It may not be the absolute “best” handling car but frankly most people don’t have enough track time or skill to really comment on a cars performance. A predictable car gives you the opportunity to learn where the car is failing vs you being the problem and over time you can become fast even if the car is slow.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-...-mDfxDdV-L.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-...-5vCSSC8-L.jpg

Ha - I get the raspberries no matter what I do (deservedly so).

I was told it is a Richmond close ratio trans (5 speed) and no reason to not believe it. Without any actual verification, I can just say it works and gears 3-5 are pretty closely geared so it works pretty nice. I have decided to short shift the LS3 around 6k rpm for now so the gear changes do happen more often than with many other transmissions. I also do not know what rear end gear is in the car but I don't really care either. It's probably a 3.23 or 3.55 I reckon. I just get in and drive.

As far searching pointers.... I'd say buy the best, safest car you can find. I knew all the builders/installers of the systems of this car (cage, suspension, tuner, etc - all local, reputable names) as they were mostly all shops AT Sears Point, so that helped immensely.

There are a lot of what appears to be "deals" in the used race car world I think. Racing Junk (so aptly named) etc... I would be hesitant to buy sight unseen one of these.

This was intended to be a training car for me.... as my Camaro (when finished) will be a downright weapon of mass destruction. This just made too much sense for me and so far I am loving it.

You are on a good path - many PT guys have gravitated there or added a race car to their stable after figuring out what you are discussing here.

Good luck in your hunt. The hunt is very fun!

I not trying to insult you. Just offering a little knowledge on your r & p ratio.
You can figure this out by jacking the car put a mark on a tire and a mark on you driveshaft then rotate the tire one complete revolution while counting the revolutions of the driveshaft.

Thanks for your advice.

Not just the Drivetrain! Chassis can get worn out and have cracks. And that's not including a Shunt or two!

Race car vs Track car
 

A race car is far safer than many of our protouring cars
If you can do both cars that is the way to go.. my problem
is I like to run my cars on the street also... problem again
if you are running a $100k car on the track you sometimes
start thinking about what will happen if something goes wrong
... the other guy, oil or water on the track or something breaks
Chet who bought my barely street legal mustang years back
was a Gm guy with a lot of cool protouring cars... his comment
to me if I wreck it is just a mustang

With a Race Car it does not have to look all that pretty to be
safe and fast.. plus someone else did most of the hard work

Bob

I’ll add a bit to this to help Dave.

1) Purchase a jack. Don’t worry, the guy at the store will know what it is.
2) Block the front wheels
3) Place the jack under that thing that connects the two rear tires and raise the back of the car...after that follow the above instructions.

:action-smiley-027:

WOW !! You guys really put effort into keeping Dave headed in the right direction.

https://www.racingjunk.com/NASA-Amer...11&from=search

Proven car that has a history and appears to have all the correct parts. Add a mild motor and trans and you’re off to the....track days. :flag2:

As far as Dave goes...he’s one of the best and it’s all in good fun.
:grouphug:

Yes, this car is only about 50 miles from me. I been thinking about setting up a appointment to go look at it. He's got the price lowered to I believe $5k now. I think it would cost about 10k to put the drivetrain back in it. I was just trying to avoid doing a project. My life has been littered with projects. I tend to get carried away when I do these car projects. I can buy a running and proven race car for the same amount I would put into this one. However if I do the project I'll know what's in it.
I'm currently talking with this person about this car.

https://www.racingjunk.com/Road-Club...Third-Gen.html

Bob. You absolutely nailed it with this whole post. I could not agree more. Especially the part in BOLD. :D

Rude! :lol:

If I didn't have my Lat G friends... I would not have any.



I would go with this instinct. :cheers:

Let me through out a Midwestern prospective on track days. The only track events where anyone is competing are the sanctioned high speed autox. All other track day events are promoted and regularly remind drivers this is not a competition. No passing in corners etc. They always discuss this in the drivers meetings. Now I agree that people ego's still tend to over rule their minds and I hear it all the time after a session is over how this guy or that guy was in my way because I had a faster car, etc. This is why I'm pursuing a race car because I know I'm not the fastest driver and these guys with the super fast cars are always pushing the limits. Until they're not ! I just don't want to be part of the NOT. And also I'm old and I don't take the chances I did when younger.
This is about the extent of my WISDOM :peepwall: :lostmarbles:

Race Cars vs Protouring
 

I am also getting older and not the fastest
The older I get the faster I was... the main thing
is to go out and have fun... find someone you can
run with and drive the cars hard but not over your head
I have been to events when I have never been passed
and then ran with the SCCA national guys and never passed
any of them... I had fun and came back in one piece

I ran the Virginia City Hillclimb in Nevada (One of the
best events I have ever done)... they came up to me every time
before I ran and told me 8/10's as they have lost many
guys on that hill who drove over their heads... also stay
away from the crazy guys out on the track... go into the hot
pits and ask for an open space... I find sometimes open track
and no one ahead or behind makes me drive better, faster
and safer

Good luck with your selection.. Vettes that are a few years old
make good track cars as many where not driven that hard and
they handle and brake good right out of the box

My 2 cents worth

Bob

Thanks to everyone for the advice. Was very enlightening and helpful. You pretty much confirmed my thoughts on making the jump. As I type this it is 13 degrees with snow on the ground and 4 months till the first track day in out area. 2018 could be a exciting year with jumping to a race car and also moving ahead with building my garage workshop. :thankyou:

Chet is one cool dude..the last track day I was about to throw a five gallon gas can into my car and light it...

He goes why dont you take mine have fun on the track dont worry about yours. Now mind you I only know Chet from catting with him at the track. It goes to show you they are race cars **** happens. in fact he is only a couple track days in on his new build after he put the nose of his car into the wall at Sonoma.

now if he had a 150k pro touring car his attitude might be different if it had perfect paint etc.

Buy a race car if you want a race car. If you want to do some light track days go pro touring.

Well, a little update. I contacted the guy that has this car and got to view the car. It's be stripped pretty clean and has not been raced for about 7 or 8 years. It would be a interesting project but because it has 351w based engine cradle in it the engine cost starts to go up. And everything is needed.
Looking at 10 - 15k for a decent built 408ci. All the suspension parts are still there and has a heavy duty built 8.8 3:73 rear end. But as usual who knows whether it is any good. At this point every piece on the car would need to checked. I think I'll pass.
Here's link to the ad with plenty of pictures.
https://chicago.craigslist.org/sox/c...405495809.html

Also, some of you guys in CA may remember this car if you followed NASA racing . Here's a link to a Mustang magazine article about the car and driver back in the day.
http://www.mustangandfords.com/featu...-gt-aix-racer/

Old? Retired? Racing? LOL


WTF......


My opinion of the people that track their EXPENSIVE PT cars is ---- I hope they're independently wealthy... otherwise they're idiots.

These tracks days are so hard on equipment... they're hard on paint... they're brutal on the motors and transmissions.... and there's no way I'd drive my track cars on the street or vice versa.


Anyone that doesn't think tracks days are RACING are not people I would want on the track with me.... that means their heads not in the right place. I can tell you - visor down! Race on! I'm going to go as fast as I can. Get the right car with the right safety equipment -- full fire protection in a driving suit - helmet - gloves - shoes - fuel cell - in car fire suppression system.... get a full containment seat -- get a Hans device.... It's all a lot of fun - right up until the time you get hurt.

Nobody knows when they're going to wreck -- nobody can predict a tire blowout -- a busted trans that oils your tires - or someone else's blown up junk and oil on the track... Trust me - it can be as simple as a coolant dump and you're off track so fast you won't know what happened to you.

I still remember being at Oregon Raceway Park -- the pro driver was testing the Palatov Pikes Peak car -- asked me if I wanted to ride along.... I said -- Hell yeah -- should I suit up or just my helmet?? He says to me --- you know what?? I've never planned a wreck.... therefore I never know when that's going to happen -- I suit up every time I get in the car. DONE. I've never gotten in the car without every safety precaution I can use since that day. A very small engine fire coming thru the firewall at mach 9 --- good luck with that T shirt....

As we say in the motorcycle world, Dress for the slide, not for the ride! LOL

And, it's not a matter of if you go down, it's a matter of when? I can attest to that. :lol:

Oh you mean like the "racers" at the last Norcal Shelby event who totaled their Mustangs?

Right ....

TWELVE CRASHES that weekend!


Not sure how many were completely totaled but more than just those two! And the one driver is the test driver for Cortex..... DRIVING A CUSTOMERS CAR!

I'm not familiar with the type of track day events on the west coast or the reason for 12 crashes at one event. But we've never seen this kind of carnage at our midwest events and this includes Road America. But I think your point is it highlights the need for safety equipment and I agree.

As far as track events are races , I'd agree as far as the equipment wear and tear are concerned. But as a whole if you approach it as a race where you have to pass everyone on the track and are complaining that a slower car does not move over for you then I'd say your at the wrong place. Go do wheel to wheel instead.

Our midwest event structure will put super fast cars on the track with slow 4 cylinder cars of various makes. So everyone must drive accordingly. It is about the enjoyment factor not about who is the fastest.

Just my 2 cents worth. :EmoteClueless:

There are ALWAYS slower cars on track -- don't care where you're running or with whom you are running. Every club has different passing rules -- point by requirements - or where the passing zones are. I don't see where anyone is complaining about that .

My point was two fold --- you will be on track with people that are going 10/10th's and you need to know that and be aware of where they are - and who they are..... The rest is about being proactive for your own safety. A wreck is no joke and something relatively simple can be catastrophic - such as a simple spin and getting t-boned --- or a high speed off where you're sideways and roll --- and I've seen plenty of brake failures or suspension failures...


There's a red NASCAR that runs with our group - that when I'm entering Turn 1 at Thunderhill and I glimpse that red coming on to the straight at Turn 15 -- I move over in Turn 2 because I know he's going to be on my ass before I exit.... That's just a given on track. The drivers that are on parade laps and are totally unaware (experience!) are the danger out there - their lines suck - they have no clue that faster cars are coming on them like freight trains. If a driver has to get the "faster traffic" flag - then that tells me they're clueless.

I was at this event -- and on track......



Watch this Mustang ---- as he oils himself.... Skip to the 4 minute mark - or watch the whole thing....


It's just as simple as something like that - he wasn't even in a big turn....

It's a fun event with a lot of killer cars (if you're into Mustangs) but it is not run well IMO or managed very seriously...

As Dave speaks to below the issue is the organizing body as they should be responsible for ensuring drivers of a similar skill level are on track at the same time. What car you are in is far less important.

When on track (in a non race) you should always drive your line at your speed; being consistant and predictable is what keeps you safe from causing a crash. If a faster car comes up on you it it their responsibility to pass you safely; your only responsibility is to stay your course and not react to them; this way you just become another predictable track obstacle to navigate around.

The only exeption to this is when you start out in beginner groups with dedicated passing zones; in those groups you need to hold your line but when a faster car catches you in a passing zone let off the gas to allow the inevitable to happen quickly and safely.

As long as the organizer of the track day polices the drivers, when you graduate to a more advanced run group you can count on people being predictable and passing is no big deal. In fact I prefer a more crowded track where passing becomes another element of the experience and hunting down and passing a car ahead of you is a rewarding experience.

Time trials is a race against the clock and in NASA the TT guys run in a mixed group and a lot of passing happens in that race. They run some TT sessions with HPDE4 (the most advanced bon competition group) to aclimate people to stress of a race environment and prep them for a comp liscence.

When you are signed off to run in an advanced group you are approaching the track day as a race and so is almost everyone in that group. If you just want to cruise the track then a beginner group with restricted passing zones is where you should be.

Agree on all counts. They don’t actively police the run groups or pull bad actors off track so you end up with people crashing. It’s sad because there are a lot of nice people and nice cars and the carnage could easily be avoided.

Scca Retired Car
 

I have been wanting to run with the Weld and the others
at a Shelby event but conflicts with time etc have held me
back.... but every time I hear they are wrecking cars.. kinda
keeps me away and to stay with my other groups... like it is stated
things can happen but in smaller groups with more experience there
is less chance of things going wrong... just saying... 12 cars...
I thought 2-4 was bad

Bob with a sort of protouring Pantera

I was just asked to work on an old NASCAR car to get it ready for track days. It appears to be an old cup car from 2003-4 built by Richard Childress Racing. Not unusual in the Southeast. Guys try to get the ones used for the road courses at Watkins Glen & Sonoma.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/f...pssjpcxuq6.jpg

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/f...pslw5ysv8v.jpg

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/f...ps8doyy1ud.jpg