Anybody slowing down from 150+ mph very quickly??
 

Curious of any brake issues anyone has hauling there heavy cars down from 100-150 mph time and time again on the road course. Any recomendations on rotors, pads, or calipers? What is the largest conventional rotor from?? I suppose the new ZO6?? What size are those?

thats a loaded question, I think you should narrow down what you are wanting to know more specifically, and if you are going to be trying to slow down from 150mph over and over, you are going to want some really good race pads, not street stuff

.....and said pads won't be worth a damn under street driving conditions.

"Race" pads generally don't work well until they have built up a substantial amount of heat. More heat than you will generate on the street.

You'll want a set of pads for the track and a different set for street driving.

I have 4 wheel disc now. I run the 12" rear z28 brakes and factory front disc. I run Race pads at all 4 corners. The car stops great and will lock them up at will. Porblem I have is if I do a couple of real fast 100-150 mph stops, the brakes in the front start smoking and start to fade after more then a couple HARD stops from these speeds. I am going to upgrade the fronts and am real curious on if people have had issues with any particular setups with this kind of driving?

Have you added an adjustable proportion valve? Sounds like the fronts may be doing a lot of the work.

A good 'race' pad is worthless on the street and vice versa. Like stated earlier, a race pad needs some heat to start really working.

Brakes basically transfer energy via heat. Get the best (and usually biggest)components you can afford or fit in your application.

Good 'real' race pads.
Good, large rotors.
Good brake bias.
Good, fresh high temp fluid.
Cooling ducts and wheels that allow air flow help, also.

Good luck.
Randy

What does this question have to do with street driving?

What does your budget look like, the stock front discs aren't all that great, especially at 150mph, You could do C5 with some good pads and fluid and maybe be okay.

Another thing I notice that you keep mentioning is doing 150mph at a road course, I think you should go to one first, before you start telling yourself your going to be doing 150mph repeadetly, the only part you would do that is on the front straight, and I think you would be pooping your pants when you see that first turn comiing at 150mph. I was told the Mule with Mark Steilow behind the wheel did 135 down the front straight(t-hill) which is pretty fast. It would be hard to see that 4000ilb chevelle with nearly stock suspensison and a new driver doing 150. However your question is still just as legit.

I'm still confused with your question, you ask about the largest rotor. Are you talking about stock GM stuff or aftermarket. You really need to find out what will fit in your wheel. Probably 13" would be max if I had to guess looking at your wheels, not sure of the size etc. Do you want to spend $600 or $2000? Obviously the more you spend the better you get, but I think that if you really do some track time, your thought of what it is about and these speeds you dream about will change. Yes you will need good pads to stop after doing 100mph+ for the first turn, but that isn't the only place you are heating them up. And most of the other turns aren't 100mph turns. I would say a good inexpensive C5 setup would be fine for your first few times at the track. When you start learning whatever track it is your going to, and start getting your line down and remembering what turns come next, and start picking up speed and need better brakes then you might upgrade even more. The good thing about good brakes at the track, is that you can brake deeper into turns. The deeper you go into the turn the later you can turn in, which helps you pass people, go faster, and apex later which all helps your lap times. Potterfield makes good race pads and so does Hawk and carbotech

I mentioned 150 mph, because it IS a realistic speed I will reach at the track, last thing I need is to have fade in the next turn. I won't start road racing untill next spring, but I am trying to get options and pro and cons from other that have been where I am going.

Last time to the track(quarter) with my old N/A small block, I made 5 passes in only 10 minutes and I thought my car was on fire! Then I noticed the front brakes smoking severely. The car kept getting faster, but the car was stopping slower, and that was only at 125 mph.

I have a adjustable proportioning valve, but the fronts are just to small. I also run synthetic fluid. The faster the car gets the smaller my front brakes are! :rolleyes:

The new zo6 brakes look nice, but I wonder how much just a c5 upgrade would help? Maybe Wilwood or brembo? I have also thought about some used Nascar style calipers, are those any good? I don't know, I have never tried those brakes! I run 17x8's in the front. I would like to put it together in bits and pieces from scratch, I am wierd that way.:(

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/551...8axfre1ha3.jpg


:rolleyes: you'll learn eventually, thinking/talking about=lot differnet than doing/experiencing. Your only goal at your first trackday is to LEARN, not go fast, its not like drag racing.

WHat kind? if you are running Dot5 that could be a problem, if you are using Dot5.2 than its all good

See the other post
https://lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=5750
I think a C5 setup would be perfect, just don't skimp on the pads.

Good info here.

Some experience on my part... C4 PBR's all the way around with 13" rotors up front, 12" rear, on a 3250lb (no driver) '68 Mustang, ~625hp, on Hoosier slicks with brake ducts in front and running The Brake Man #4 pads works very, very well for 20 minute HARD track sessions with a very aggressive driver. One thing you need to remember is take a cool down lap so ambient heat doesn't bake the rubber dust seals on the calipers when you park it in the pits.

C4/C5 brakes for "casual" track days work very well when paired with good pads especially when cooling ducts and hi temp fluid is in place.

I think a C5 setup with good pads (maybe consider a set of track wheels-- certain race pads and their dust can be quite corrosive to wheels especially if the dust gets wet) and cooling ducts will do the job for you. Run good hi-temp fluid like Motul or Wilwood (fresh just before the track day.) If you mix and match pad brands (such as having a street pad you run and then some race pads) you may also want another set of rotors that stay bedded to those particular pads. However, I do know that Carbotech advises you are OK to switch pad compounds as long as you stick with their stuff without having to re-bed-- that's nice! Running race pads on the street has drawbacks too, not getting them hot enough can often lead to amazingly fast rotor wear.

Be warned of the other probable heat management issues I bet you will have... heatsoaking the radiator & engine, you'll probably need a big tranny cooler, and being turbo'd you're guaranteed to need a LARGE engine oil cooler as well. I would also be willing to bet that you'll end up melting some of the "soft bits" under the hood from heat exposure from radiant heat off all the turbo plumbing under sustained use/abuse on the track. Also, did you put inconel exhaust valves in? Under roadcourse use with turbos you might "tulip" a set of stainless valves, I see it on boosted boat applications.

Nice bird? :_paranoid

I am using DOT 5.0037123335 fluid. It is a special mixture, Valvoline. Top secret.

Whatever speed I will be slowing down from, I am sure it will be dead fast. And doing that lap after lap, I just want a real good brake. All my buddies run at road america on there bikes quite often. Unfortunatly, none of them have track cars, just bikes. They say they are hitting 165 mph or so on the straight, I am not sure what to do about that, I guess I will just have to part throttle down the straight? I can't wait to go, but I want the car setup before I do. What do the fast guys do? let off on the straights. If they are doing 165, I would be doing about 180+, that seems a little fast??? It sure will be fun setting the car up though! I am all excited, can you tell! :willy:

That is a an add on I will be doing, an oil cooler. Luckily, my turbo setup in not getting hot under 10 psi, which I am sure I will be under most of the time. 10 psi is still about 700 hp.
My major concern is a good brake setup I can put together so I wont spend as much time in the grass. :(

Hey no problem with wanting your car right first! And no offense but you have the mentality of someone who hasn't been to the track, it is a lot different than you think, you just have to go and experience it for yourself. Its not necessarily so special or anything but it is easy to get concepts and misconceptions about it, and come up with goals and a mindset that are not realistic. Don't worry about the straight aways that is the easiest part of the entire track and I guarantee you will be letting off, maybe not a lot, but you won't be going into the corner as deep as you possibly could. For me the hardest part of driving the track is braking late, and holding off to turn in. Your instict when you see that turn coming up is to slow down and turn in when it feels comfortable, but the way to be fast is to brake later and turn in later. But my whole point was that to talk about doing 150 and the whole point of needing good brakes was because you wanted to go really fast down the straight aways is kinda silly. The only expectation you should have is that you are going to be humbled, and will be slow at first, and that you will have a lot to learn.

It will be a lot more fun if you can let go of wanting to be fast, and just enjoy the whole experience and mostly learn and have fun thats what your there for its not a race.

and I am interested to heare what kind of brake fluid you have, you might think I'm being anal but it makes a difference. I applaud you for wanting to take your car to the extreme and actually go out there and use it like it was intended for! So what are you considering doing with the front brakes?
EDIT: I just checked out a map of Road America and damn those are some long straight aways! So maybe you will be hitting those speeds but still I wasn't trying to destroy your goals and such, just trying to show you what you should actually be concerned about :thumbsup:

BTW I have a great suggestion for you, tape up your speedo so you can't see it. This is something that most intructors will tell you to do. Once you get the whole "fast" thing out of your head you will be light years ahead of yourself. That way you are only driving at your comfort level, not at some predetermined number that you decided while listening to your friends tell you stories.

And If I were you, I would be doing a C5 front setup, you can piece it together and do it very cheaply. Or better yet I belive Dennis68 put together a pretty killer wilwood setup for fairly cheap, with a revised spindle and geometry. I'll look for his website, I don't believe he posts much anymore

EDIT: heres his site, I think he might have the right solution for you;
http://www.onrails.us/
check out his wilwood setup , with the improved spindle, hub, and steering arm

The real good calipers don't even have dust seals for this exact reason, although they will make crappy street brakes. Another thing that you might think about if you are serious about brakes is that the good calipers use titanium or stainless pistons, the stock GM calipers I believe use cast aluminum or something which puts more heat into your fluid.

True about the dust seals, which is why I don't like running "racing" brake calipers for street duty-- sucks having to rebuild your calipers every few thousand street miles! Depends on your driving conditions of course.

I know Wilwood and I'm sure others offer insulating pistons (look at the figures of the Thermlock pistons on the Wilwood site) that are lower in conduction because of material selection but also offer radiant heat barriers and a reduced contact areas to keep the pistons and fluid cooler. Stainless and titanium pistons are definately better than aluminum when it comes to thermal conductivity. Wilwoods pistons also greatly minimize the actual pad to piston contact area through some clever machining and built-in airgaps for additional insulation.

http://www.wilwood.com/Products/001-...-STR/index.asp

Lower boost and correspondingly higher timing will keep the EGT's down which should help minimize thermal problems under the hood with all the turbo plumbing... but I would still expect problems the first time you hit the track. Murphy is a crafty fellow. :_paranoid

Definately run high octane gas at the track. Your street tune which may not detonate during occasional WOT blasts on 93 octane may detonate like mad once you start using sustained heavy throttle which will heatsoak the engine and combustion chambers. You may even have to step down to colder plugs.

I haven't read all you have done but I am assuming you have not done a track day. A trick to going fast around a track is braking late but you don't have to. Go sign up for a track day and go in the beginner class. It is easy to slow down for the corner early enough so you hardly need the brakes. You won't be the fastest but you will be out there learning. Get a instructor to ride along and show you apexes etc. After a couple sessions you will have a better feeling if you even like track events. You might also figure out you need a different oil pan to keep from starving for oil in extended turns. Depending on how your boost comes on you might even be dialing it back so it doesn't suprise you in a turn. We had the boost on the Mule dialed back. You might figure out all kinds of stuff you want to change on the car.

From what I know about NitroRocket, I would be surprised if he hasn't been to 150 already. He has one of my favorite engines on this site putting out over 900 horse! and he seems Crazy enough to do it frequently. I aplaud you for finally wanting to make your car safer.

I have a pretty good idea what it takes to make it around the track except the adrenaline rush part! Sound a little small scale, but I am a very good and experienced RC car racer. Same principles, but real life. :D I just want to have some real fun. I have a buddy who was a track instructor at RA and we have torn it up a little, great fun!

Anyway. I just run a DOT 4 SYNTHETIC, I think, I havent looked at the bottle since winter. It is Valvoline brand though.

I might consider the C5 swap, But I really like the pure strength of the new ZO6 brakes, I could never see brake fade with those. I have to start doing alot of research on calipers and go from there.

I was really concerned about the high speeds because I have such a high powered heavy car that really taxes the brakes. Road America has some rediculously long straights and that brings some serious MPH!

I have always wanted to get into road racing. I am a very aggressive driver on the street and really want to take it to the track. Country backroads are real fun at 100+ but dangerous. Any sport bike rider will know what I am talking about. I regretfully had to sell the bike, and I really miss the "rides", but the car will do just the same......with a radio too! Yes, I drive the cars like they are meant to be driven. No trailer Queens for me! :D

What class do you race???, Bike I assume?

Before you dump a bunch of money on the new ZO6 stuff, you might want to research it on the Corvette boards. There are more than a few Vette owners having a terrible time with those brakes at track events. Pads are very epensive, too, and there is just the OEM street compound available. They're ok for the street and very light track (or end of the dragstrip type stuff), but that's on a car much lighter than yours. If might be worth your while to call up some brake manufacturers and see what they can do for you. Regular C5 brakes might be a better option because the pad choice is huge.

From what I've read at Corner-Carvers (whose members include many instructors), you'll need to make sure you're very open to learning at the track. I don't think any instructor will be comfortable with you going anywhere near that fast your first time out - and if you do so against their wishes, you'll be done.

Ryan

We have the best street/track day setup you could get to bolt onto your car. More than likely it will require a much larger wheel, but 150-0 will be very repeatable.

Take a look at the AFX spindle, then look at the AP Racing brake setup.

Tyler

As others have said, when tracked the C6 Z has brake issues. And if they do with a 3100 pound car, you can imagine with your weight.

You'll need more brake than that for hard track use.

Jody

Man, you know it all :wow: :rolleyes: :D you have some good ideas but just still need to let down on the macho attitude. I too thought I was pretty bad ass, until I realized I didn't know anything. But you are right, Road america looks ridiculous fast, and you will need some good brakes but like Charlie said your first day, or at least the first half of the day, don't worry about blasting down the straight. You sound like you are more worried about going fast down teh straight away then taking the turns quickly. Why even go to the track if your goal is top speed? I thought we already had this discussion????
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/5...ingplanrk7.jpg
But don't worry your outlook on all this is very typical for an inexperienced driver. Everyone thinks they are mario andretti unti they crash and burn

I don't race, and yes the bike. and for the record, I'm sure you'll make a great driver and such, but typically a lot of the guys who think they are great drivers from hauling ass up in the hills suddenly realize that they don't know anything and realize just how slow they really were, ask any biker how much slower and boring the street is after going to the track. Anyway this is getting repetative. Let us know what you plan to do in terms of braking. Don't do the Z06 stuff its crap, the C6/C5 stuff can't be beat for the price.

Here is what you need to do;
Do a C5 brake setup with some really good pads, Hawk race pads would be "okay" then spend the extra money you are saving on a set of good tires. Get some R compound tires, that will be the biggest improvement you can do. If you used to ride bikes than you should also know that tires are HUGE, same applies to cars, You will be able to not only brake harder but will get much more grip and stabilty. You should be able to do the C5 conversion for $4-$600 maybe even less

EDIT: sorry if I sound harsh or coming down on you, but after a few trackdays you will come back and read your posts and understand why I kinda jumped on you. You are heading in the right direction, and I woudln't worry about getting the car top notch, I would just take it as-is(maybe with the brakes and tires) and take it out there. Don't have any goals or expectations from yourself, just go do it to have fun and see what its about. Then over the winter build your car up. I think this would be a MUCH better plan, then building your car all up, and then going out and trying to beat a land speed record, and either crash trying, or dissapoint yourself and get stressed out. And for the record I am not great driver nor do I have years of experience doing it, but it was only a little while ago when I thought just like you did, and so I recognize what you are thinking. Whatever you do have fun and be safe because at the end of the day, you will never be the fastest and its much more fun to just relax and enjoy yourself :cheers:

:rofl:
So by that logic since I play Tom Clancy's "Splinter Cell" a bunch I am totally qualified for Special Forces Duty, and since I spank the monkey quite a bit that means I am good in bed.

Is that the fancy looking AP brakes above the touring classics set on your site??

I want to set the car up first because a good car can help make up for a crappy driver! :D
Practice makes perfect and I am sure I will learn a ton on the first day. Luckily I have an experienced buddy I will bring along to show me as many pointers as he can to speed up the learning curve. I was real concerned with the speed because, the faster you go the less effective brakes are. That is my main concern, the brakes might help save me If I get ahead of myself!! :D I am excited about going, I am a super agressive driver and on the track I will be able to actually push myself to my limits and not have to worry about dangering myself or others, I can't wait. It has to be an absolute blast! By no means am I going because I think I am the best or to try and break any records, I just want to have fun and drive as fast as I can. :D

I am not wanting to go with a true race tire.... I used to run Pirelli PZERO slicks on the street a couple years ago! The problem was, they would take way to long to heat up before they would actually grip.... I was getting in trouble trying to go WAY faster then I should on off ramps and such to heat them up to get traction from them. What I am saying is, I have to have a tire that will grip on the street also. I cannot afford to run 2 sets of wheels and tires for track and street, I am forced to go dual purpose.

Really sounds like the C5 setup is the way to go from all the posts about them. I am really suprised about the negative feedback on the ZO6 stuff?? Those rotors and calipers look massive!! :faint:

Thanks for all the info, there is alot of good stuff here!!

not to jump in...
 

a full day of tracking your car hard will waste a set of tires. Especially with the weight of your car. I think you will find that your street tires will get "greasy" pretty quick .

What tires have you run? I was thinking the BFG G-Force, or Some Pilots?

Some R compound tires would work just fine on the street, some Toyo RA1's or anyting along those lines would work great on teh street and track.

A good set of street tires will last. I just replaced a set of Bridgestone RE730's with RE750's. (The RE730's aren't made anymore )

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/6355/tires60bn.th.jpg http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/4354/tires57uz.th.jpg http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/9027/tires46fv.th.jpg http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/9547/tires10gi.th.jpg

Those tires have about 28k miles on my Impala SS. As well as normal street duty, they have worked through more than 5 high speed open track events at BIR (3.1 mile track) and MAM (2.3 mile track). Each event was 90 to 100 miles on the track. There is several drag race days and a high speed autocross event (1.3 mile) on them also. My street driving has been called 'rental car like'. :lol:

I could only rotate front to rear and kept an eye on the pressure. I usually run them a little on the high side for PSI.

If it wasn't for the occasional rain that I have to drive in, those tires would still be on the car. I was really impressed with them. The new RE750's seem to work well too after one event, but don't 'look' as nice as the RE730's.

Just stay away from the $100 tires and you should be able to find a good street / track tire. Drive smooth with a decent suspension set up and you can make tires last a little while. I think the 1000 horsepower will be the hardest thing on your tires!

Randy

Anyone ever try a drag radial at the track? Like BFG or MT. They are sticky as hell, and besides the wear, I would think they would work ok. I am a little afraid of how dangeroud my car would be with a harder compound then my Drag radials. So far they have not shown any weekness on the street for turning and allow me enough traction to not spin out at speed. Plus I am getting a few thousand miles out of them! :_paranoid

Wrong. I'm not sure how much high performance driving (or motorcycling) experience you have, but the idea is to learn how to go fast, not simply to be "aggressive." There is a huge difference between any high performance driving simulation (street driving, RC cars, computer sim games, etc.) and actually having your life (and the lives of others) at risk if you screw up. Race tracks are dangerous; driving fast on race tracks is dangerous; driving fast on race tracks with novice drivers who are "super agressive" is the most dangerous of all.

You've started several threads about setting your car up for extreme high performance driving situations. In each thread, experienced drivers and builders have taken the time to share their experiences with you, in particular to advise you to forget about how fast you're going and to learn how to go fast. You have largely chosen to ignore (or at least not acknowledge) the safety warnings and persist in the pursuit of the extreme high performance driving situation. If you act on the race track as you have on this board, I truly fear that we will shortly be reading about a terrible crash at RA involving a Chevelle, simply because you've been more focussed on going fast than being safe.

The street tires I've seen after a hard day at the track have been balled up pretty good, right Charley??!!! :unibrow: I do think they "come around" after driving them on the street again.


Jody

By aggressive I mean I am not afraid to go fast. The only thing I was ever afraid of was those darn triple jumps in the motocross days! :(

Like I said, I want to get out there so I can drive to the limits of MY abilitys. I have heard everything you guys have said. And again, I have been asking for input on safety like suspension, brakes, etc. to go real fast, because I have a real fast car. Those things become more important. I want to set the car up for where I am going to be with track time under nmy belt, not for my first time out.

It takes practice to become a better driver, but that is not what I am asking. I want to know how to set the car up to go fast 1st safely in the handling dept and braking, THEN, I will take it to the track and get used to it. That is surely safer then taking a sh*t box to the track and crashing cause the car is not setup for racing? Correct?? Skill will come obviously, but the car has to be setup 1st, thats why I am asking about car setups and accessories. :)

What do you mean? What tires??

GO with some R compound tires, that is what your drag radials are made out of, but the non dragradial ones will have a stiffer sidewall which will make them better for turning. They will heat up quickly on the street and track, and you won't break the bank either. Best of both worlds. Nitto, Toyo, and a few other companies make them.

Anyone try the BFG R1 tires? The inside half looks almost slick? I would think they would work real well. Has anybody put them up against the Toyo RA1??

Here you go. Click here!

Run your car on one of the fastest tracks in the U.S. :yes:

The straight is one mile long. With any luck the tire wall will save the trees from any significant damage. :rofl:

It isn't that far from you... :unibrow:

Randy

Edit for some teaser pics....
151 mph?
Mile long straight
Who would run a big car on the track? :willy:

:unibrow:

One thing to remember and keep in mind is the REAL fun on the roadcourse is getting into and powering out of the turns-- You can signifantly increase your safety factor and take a lot of "wear and tear" off the equipment if you impose a top-speed cap down the straight parts of the track and also let off and brake earlier.

You will still have a lot of fun and your car will thank you for it. :P

It *IS* hard to control yourself though... many guys get out there and immediately overdrive their ability. I've seen it many times at Ferrari Club track days back when my Dad used to have his and we would go out on track rental days with the club. Lots of guys balled their cars up from ego-related mishaps. Once you get over the mental thing of feeling the artificial "need" to drive at 11/10th of your own and your car's ability on a casual open track day you'll have a lot more fun. Just keep it sane and work the speed up slowly, it's much better to run into ability or vehicle shortcomings at lower speeds. Tire barriers, K-rails, and rollovers all suck. Seen 'em all. Work on being smooth first, THEN work on being fast. The mental discipline thing can be real tough though as most guys, even inexperienced, go out and drive foot to the floor. Sometimes they get away with it... other times they hurt the car, themselves, or others. And definately get an experienced instructor.

I can't remember, what front suspension do you run now? Going to Denny's setup (Coleman spindles, Wilwood brakes, etc) or an AFX-based setup would be a HUGE improvement in the geometry and handling predictability department and also get you some better brakes. The B-body setup sucks at high speeds because of the massive amounts of bump steer, I have had a few very scary moments above 130 in my car with the bump steer on the B-body setup. Still needs to be swapped out.

As far as the rear suspension, as long as you keep the factory 4-link in your car that will always be the drawback because of the super-high rear roll center height... but the factory 4 link with all spherical joints and the built in roll-understeer will be quite predictable at the limit. That limit will just be lower than with a well designed rear suspension. I abuse my car all the time in turns and the traction limit of the rear is what holds me back-- but once it breaks loose it stays in a nice controllable slip as long as you don't do anything stupid on the throttle or brakes while it's sliding. I've actually gone to a less-aggressive front alignment to cut down on front end traction because I was getting too much oversteer with the "fun" front end alignment which was overpowering the available rear traction.

On the tire subject, I recently drove a track-prepped 'Stang on RA1's and was very impressed with the mannerisms on the street especially when cold-- way more traction than say Hoosier RS-series slicks when they are cold (aka: ice.) Once heated up the RA1's stuck very well, but obviously didn't hold a candle to hot Hoosiers. For a dual purpose tire R-compounds are nice!

Also think about a track alignment setting with additional caster and camber. More caster for straightline stability, more camber for cornering ability until you put so much in you affect stability under braking. You'll also need less toe-in (possibly toe out) to compensate for the inward thrust that is a component of the additional negative camber. Now is also the time to start thinking about stiffer springs, etc. Depends what you're running now. For our boatly A-bodies you will probably end up in the 850-950#/in range up front with a 1-1.125" sway bar and around 175-200#/in out back. Don't skimp on shocks either, cheap shocks with poor valving and high speed is a bad combination!

^^^^^^^
great post and very well spoken. Oh and by the way, you won't be "racing" anyone but yourself. Remember that racing is totally differnet than an open track day. I know its hard to say driving at the track or something, but if you go to the trackday and talk about racing people are gonna look at you funny ;)