Ford... what's going to happen?
 

It keeps on getting uglier and uglier at Ford. The cuts they're planning on over the next 24 months are huge.

Is the UAW killing them? Do they really have fork lift operators making over $100k a year?

I hope they can right their ship before its too late. All we need it Toyota gaining more market share.

Comments?

They made comments about shutting down the Town Car... so many taxi/limo companies are just gonna buy Caddy's :D

Maybe Renault/Nissan will buy them, they seem to be fishing for the Big 3 lately.

Ford and GM are both in big trouble.

The problems are more than one single thing. Except if you call their way of doing business one single thing. They have been doing business the same way for years, but things around them have changed, they adapted in ways that were quick fixes that have hurt them tremendously in the long run.

Competition, 50 years ago, they competed with themselves. Today, the competition comes from every conceivable angle, and it is better and cheaper. How have they dealt with this? Rebates and advertising. Both cost them huge amounts of money, that they simply cannot afford to sustain.

Hind-sight is always twenty/twenty. So we can say they shoulda this shoulda that all day. The real question is what they should do now.

The entire business model at both companies needs to be thrown out. It just does not work anymore. Everything from conceptualization to production all the way to sales and service, needs to be rethought.

Bringing in Boeing's Mullaly, might do the trick, but I highly doubt it.

There are ways to beat the competition and profit from it. I would propose selling a major stake in the company to one of the largest finance companies in the US. Then, I would set up a program with that company to finance all vehicles at a maximum of 10% apr. THis means if you go over to Toyota, and they quote you 22% (it happens more than you think), then you can go to Ford and they will give you 10%. If you have excellent credit, you can still get 0% or whatever they decide to use. This alone could save buyers over 100 dollars a month. This is a major selling point.

Next, in line with this program, I'd develop a city/inexpensive vehicle. Plastic body panels, heat, air, a cd player and power steering/brakes, offered in clean diesel and a small displacement gas, it could best 50 mpg and cost under 10,000. The best selling cars of all time (by a huge margin) were small cheap well engineered cars. Combined with a platform that could be shared with other inexpensive vehicles up to midsize vehicles, it would provide adaptability and higher profit per unit. Teamed with low apr guarantee, it would be very affordable to those who otherwise couldn't get a car. As long as it was designed the right way, it could become the next (original) beetle. This car would also be a global vehicle and could sell as many as 1m units annually. Ford probably has most of th ecomponents in it's bin to make this happen today. This could also have parts and sub-assemblies built all over the world at different ford plants, making it even less expensive to produce.

Jaguar, Aston, and LR would all be put on the auction block, but only up to a certain percent. I would say what else I would do with them, but I don't think anyone would like it. I don't mean dismantling them either.

Next, each vehicle would have a price point. below that point and you are losing money. Above that point and you are making money. This point would not include rebates, or excessive advertising. Then each month's sales numbers would dictate the next months budget for rebates and advertising. This would also be a way to break it down and see what is costing the most, what costs too much, and where changes need to be made.

Finally, incomes and salaries from the top to the bottom, would need to be re-evaluated. Hourly wages are out of hand. My father worked for General motors, and would tell me about the old man who worked for 40 years pushing a broom. He didn't want to retire, and because of when he was hired they couldn't force him to. He made over 60 dollars an hour. There is no need for that. I'd say 10 dollars an hour is insulting to a worker on a production line, but 60 an hour is excessive. Also 6m a year for a CEO who underperforms, is excessive as well.




Sorry for throwing my 2 cents at it, but these topics really get me going. They do nothing but throw Harvard grad after Yale grad at the CEO chair and none are prepared adequately to fix things the way they should be fixed. It takes a whole new perspective, and they just don't get that. By the time they do, it will probably be too late.

I see it as a microcosm of how economies of countries work. Think of Japan 10 years ago, then China 2 years ago....people predict that the next big economic powerhouse is India. Yes the US is powerful, but only as a consumerl; our exports have gone down the drain.

I think every company/country has a power-cycle. I think we are getting closer to the end of it for Domestic car manufacturers. If you think about it optimistically though, it is a sign of healthy capitalism.

Uhh....I wouldn't say we're in "big" trouble. We were in a bit of a downward spiral but are now coming out of it. Don't lopp us in with Ford...that's an insult.

As far as they're concerned, I'm worried about my cousin George...he's been there 16 years and has so far dodged every bullet they've shot. But I wonder how much longer he can keep it up.

The problem with domestic Automakers is more gray than it is black and white. I know I have popped off numerous times on this board and others about the perception people have about our cars. Japan has launched one of the most successful PR battles in this country over the past 20 years and our media has been all too happy to oblige them. They basically can get away with whatever they want and can absolutely do nothing wrong (at least that's what the media will have you believe). Case in point...the FJ Cruiser. Why isn't Toyota getting stoned to death for this vehicle the way we have been over HHR? Just look at it. If you don't see H3 in that vehicle you are blind as a friggin bat. Why aren't they being ridiculed, ripped on, and dragged across the coals? They did it to us over HHR, comparing it to the PT Cruiser. I'll tell you why they can get away with it......BECAUSE THEY'RE TOYOTA...THAT'S WHY. They can do no wrong....they're Gods....everything they touch turns to gold. I'll ask you to (once again) take a look at the Honda Element; praised to death in all the rags as a bold, risk taking concept that for a change is a different take on the SUV. You buy this car and you’re a smart buyer that knows quality and style when he sees it. Take the Honda badge off and put on a Pontiac V crest and you can flush all that praise and adulation straight down the toilet. Our media would have ripped that car a new ass, just as they did to the Pontiac Aztek.

Well, that’s enough. I no longer have the energy to argue this tired, drawn out debate about what’s wrong with our domestic car companies. We can't dwell on that crap. We have to press forward and continue to commit ourselves to delivering "must have" products with unparalleled quality. I am completely confident that the products we have coming out in the next 2 to 3 years will make us a force in this industry once again.

I hope you're right about this part, because you were right-on with the rest of your post. :thumbsup:

Trapin is right, put a Pontiac badge on it and its all over but who to fire for the design. I have not now nor will I ever own a Japanese Automobile. I pull for the Big 3, GM in particular. Funny thing is, seems like every one wants "Throwback" cars... I feel certain that GM could build the 69 Camaro, 67 Corvette, 66 Chevelle, 55 Chevrolet ( I am listing my favorites of course) better than anyone else, modern engines and suspensions in the older bodies, lets see the press piss and moan over that. Don't think it would sell if they actually did have a "Throw back Division"? I am going to sell something significant to buy me one of those Challengers when they get built. But that's just me.

As trapin said, it's not black and white; however, it cannot be blamed only on the press hating the USA. For example, the press loves the new mustang and it sells great; but Ford is still doing worse than ever. The fact is there are many things that the "Big 3" have done wrong that the Japanese manufacturers have done right. Lower prices (not only the big 3's fault) and better reliability are factually provable examples.

Of course there is a lot of brand loyalty/pride among the members of these and like forums, but the rest of the country is the larger audience that the domestic manufacturers must cater to. If you want them to survive, they can't do it with the gearhead mentality...these are different times.

As a designer, I can see huge differences in those vehicles you mentioned (frankly all but the PT and HHR which might as well been designed by the same person). Honestly, the Element looks just ok, the Aztec.... well just look at it.

I don't mean to spark a debate over it, but subtle differences on the same model can mean sale or no sale to a buyer. The Fj is not close to a Hummer. Yes, it is a boxy 4X4, but stylistically I'd say it is a cross between a hummer and a Jeep, in other words faithful to the original FJ.

People don't always believe the media when it comes to taste. Look at movies. Box office hits have many times been criticized heavily by critics.

All I am saying on this subject is the buyer is the one who makes the decision in the end. They can be told something is ugly, or beauitiful but if they don't agree, they don't agree.

I do put GM and Ford in the same category, because both of them have failed to adapt correctly to the changes that have faced them.

Maybe the media has treated your companies unfairly. How about how your companies reacted when the media and the buyers were telling them from the late 70's through the end of the 90's that your quality was not up to par with the Japanese? So when they were telling the companies what the problem was, there was no one listening. On the other hand, Japanese companies have not faltered in offering good reliable products. So there they have the choice of favoring a company that offers a good product, or a company that offered crap for many years and acted like it could do no wrong, and now acts like everything is falling in on them and they don't know why (while the media all along told them what the problem was). The media was not attacking your companies when it said the cars were crap, it was telling them what the problem was. Instead of fixing it, all of them acted like they were being attacked by the media for no good reason and failed to listen.

It is black and white. Adapt effectively or you don't survive. It is not grey, it is not more complicated. That is what the problem is at GM and Ford, everything is too complicated. Putting a price point on every car that rolls off the line is simple, and tells the company exactly what can and can't be done.
I understand that the price point will change with volume and production line efficiency, but that can be factored in as well. And stick to it, if you only have 1m for advertising, make it count, but don't go over.

GM and Ford have commitees and panels and bean counters up the wazoo, instead of having a clear goal and going out and meeting that goal. GM has made strides and is on the right track, but still is overcomplicated and has failed to use it's best business plans to it's advantage to make an effective company wide change, like the Solstice business model, or even the GTO business model. The entire Solstice development cost less than the changeover from 1997-1998 for the firebird and camaro, which still used most of the same components. Instead of looking at that and seeing how that could be used to develop vehicles more efficiently, they go back to the normal way of developing products, by throwing money into it. Using the Solstice way, they can develop 5 niche vehicles that can be medium volume sellers (over 25k units) and be successful, for the price they usually spend on one that may sell 100k units in it's best year.

Sorry again I don't mean to spark a debate, but I too get going over this stuff.

I have a legitimate question regarding quality issues with 80s & 90s GM cars... my question is, what was wrong with them? I've driven 80s & 90s GMs (mostly B-bodies, full-size trucks, and the cars with 3.8L, 2.8L, and 3.1L V6s) most with a gazillion miles on them all my life, and have never had an unreliable/problematic car. Was I just fortunate, or what? I know the quad-4 had head-gasket problems, and the 3.4L V6 had timing belt issues... is that entirely what the bad reputation came from??? I guess you could throw the olds 350 diesel in the list of duds too, but I'd imagine people would have gotten over that one by now. :_paranoid

How many of you guys have owned late model Big 3 vehicles & Toyota to compare? My family has, and the Toyota's speak for themselves, not only in quality and reliability, but in resale. Even the Germans can't keep up. Also Toyota offers little in options (only 1 or 2 engine/tranny choices available) while the big 3 offer 5+ per vehicle. That definately keeps costs down. I love Big 3 products and have owned my share, but from an investment staindpoint and not having the time or money to be fixing or repairing a daily driver all the time it's no wonder why Toyota is winning the battle. Honda and Nissan are following suit.

For example, what is your full size GM or Ford truck worth after one year of ownership VS a Toyota? Check the papers and see what the answer is.

there were quality problems, as well as fit and finish, and the fisher price interiors, and the shorter warranties, peeling/fading paint. These are all things that turned people away.

were not going to talk about the olds diesel, or the caddy cimmaron. :_paranoid

What problems exactly have you had? In a combined 100k miles on the GM cars my wife and I currently drive, I have replaced one fuel pressure regulator, one coil, and one starter aside from routine maintenance and wear parts. Again, maybe I'm just lucky, but I'm hardly working on them "all the time". None of these are new cars - '98 bonneville 140k, '95 Caprice 150k, and '91 Bonneville 250k. I'm expecting an opti-spark in the caprice within the next 50k, but the others I don't anticipate any more than oil changes and filters for a long time. The only shop visits are to clear the CEL when my wife forgets to put the gas-cap on. :rolleyes:

I can understand the paint... I've had a few trucks in the blues and silvers that were peelers. The rest, seems to be up to par on the cars I've owned. I've never sat in a car as comfortable as my old '93 Caprice. Of course, that's a much higher quality car than a Grand Am or some of those other cheap small cars that may have been considered "low quality".

It just baffles me that their reputation could be so bad, since all of my GM car experiences have been positive.

You guys brought up the Aztec. Well, there was a Toyota that was the EXACT SAME CAR!!! Really nice reviews on the Toyota, and then Pontiac got crapped on. Can you name the car?

On the issue of reliability, it goes both ways. There's people that have no trouble with any of the cars coming from the big three. There's people that have had nothing BUT issues with Japanese cars. They all have their lemons. I know people that buy BMW's because they're German cars and they talk all about the engineering. What they soon realize is all the wiring and electrical issues those cars seem to have. I know more people that lease a BMW only to turn and say they'd never get another one. In fact, I've seen some go from a BMW X5 to a Chevy Tahoe or Ford Expedition. They say the American car is more comfortable in almost every way. In reality, I just wish that most media types would lower their expectations on all cars and not compare them to eachother like they do. They take one car and hold it on a pedastal, and if a car has one thing that doesn't measure up, even though three other things might surpass that other car, it is dumped on. Kinda like the guys from Top Gear. Oh, the C6 Corvette Z06 will scare the pants off of them, but look at that rear panel flex. Oh, and it has a horse and buggy leaf spring in back? Can't do that. It's not a Jaguar or a Ferrari. Yet it still spanks them all in every category.

As for what happens up top in these companies, well, they just don't listen to the consumer enough. Do that and you can build a better car. Just don't limit yourself based on what a minority says.

I'm sure salaries, medical insurance and huge executive salaries/compensation packages don't help.

I agree with the above, not only in terms of resale, but overall quality. After owning an average of 6 domestic brand cars each one new per year; I can say from personal experience Toyota, Honda, and Nissan are a better overall car. I hate to say it but I refuse to stick my head in the sand.

What problems have I had?

I had a 1994 Trans Am that was at the dealership weekly getting something fixed, leaky windows, tailights and faded paint when it was brand new! Nevermind all the sensors that went bad, the opti, cracked factory plugs and at least 6 blown rear-ends.

For Dodge I had two trucks:

a 1998 Ram which the rear-end blew and the tranny wasn't too far behind, luckily I sold it before anything worse happened (and I never towed with this truck)

a 1999 Durango which was the biggest POS I ever owned. Loved the styling and size, but a brake job every 9-12 months? A new tranny and rear end. All new ball joints in the front end, (Dodge recalled all 2000-2003 Durango's for this, which was hundreds of thousands of them) I blew $10K on it last year alone before tossing it in the gutter. The gas mileage was horrible, most V6 trucks made more power than it.

My point is, if the big three would spend the money researching and developing parts that last past 5 years or 100K miles they would save them selves alot of headaches down the road when there cars are all POS. Ball joints and brakes designed for 4 cyl cars/trucks on 6000lb vehicles? Rear-ends in a 300-350hp V8 sports car the same size as 4cyl S10 pickups? C'mon where's the quality there?

Up here you can buy a brand new Ford Explorer for $50K Cdn, 6 months later the dealers are pawning them off at $35-$40K brand new on the lot, just to get rid of them? You can buy a new Escalade or Hummer H2 for $80K and pick them up used one year old for $50K :lol: Mind you this is Canadian funds.

I love American cars as much as you guys, nice style, V8 power. But from an investment they can't keep up vs Toyota.

I Agree 110%.

Part of Fords Problem
 

This is a part of their problem. Ford Leader said he would rather go bankrupt than give in to the boycott. Never ignore your base!!
http://www.afa.net/aa090606.asp
Pro-Family organizations endorsing the boycott of Ford include:

American Family Association
Center for Reclaiming America
Citizens for Community Values
Vision America
Free Market Foundation
WIN Family Services
Liberty Counsel
CatholicVote.org
Point of View Radio
Coalitions for America
Mayday for Marriage
RealMarriage.org
Judeo-Christian Council
Constituent Vote
Faith2Action
Coalition for Marriage and Family
ConservativeHQ.com
Tradition, Family, Property, Inc.
National Association of Marriage Enhancement
VCY America Radio Network
Illinois Family Institute
Renew America
Christian Coalition International (Canada), Inc.
Truth Tellers
National Prayer Network
West Virginia Family Foundation
Awake America Ministries
Abiding Truth Ministries
The Pro-Family Law Center
Brian Camenker, Dir. Mass Resistance
Christian Family Coalition
United States Justice Foundation
Catholic Citizens of Illinois (CCI)

(other organizations are expected to endorse the boycott during the next few weeks)

For more on Ford's promotion of the homosexual agenda, check out these sites
www.fordglobe.org
http://www.witeckcombs.com/show.news...184&format=pdf
www.witeckcombs.com/portfolio.html
www.fordglobe.org/magnet.html
www.fordglobe.org/history.html
www.glaad.org/media/archive_detail.php?id=3493
http://www.fordglobe.org/2001/04/18f...diaAwards.html
http://www.witeckcombs.com/show.news...149&format=pdf
media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=11559&make_id=96
http://www.originaldissent.com/forum...p/t-10188.html
www.planetout.com/money/article.html?sernum=314
http://www.thegully.com/essays/gay_m...amily_ads.html
www2.commercialcloset.org/cgi-bin/iowa/portrayals.html?record=1082
www2.commercialcloset.org/cgi-bin/iowa/portrayals.html?record=1170
Ford Affirms Gay Publication Support. No Victory for AFA

Uhh....come again? :_paranoid

No doubt that now quality with the Japanese brands is closing. But the big 3 or is it the big 2 now, have lost a whole generation to foreign cars. Many people have grown up with a honda station wagon and not an Olds Vista Cruiser like some on this board.

And as far as how those late 80' early 90's cars reliability were I agree. Many times I see these domestic cars with alot of miles on the clock. But lets step back for a moment and take a look at how cars "feel".

There is a way controls move along with the steering and the way the car feels rolling down the road. All this can inspire confidence. I been in some late model domestic cars that feel less tight than the old 1998 Nissan Maxima I used to drive around.

And some talk about reliability. When they just have to change injectors,a couple water pumps,computer etc on domestic iron . On that Nissan, other than two sets of CV shafts and a starter at 274,000 THOUSAND MILES. I did not need a damn thing up until I got hit by a drunk driver at 323,000 THOUSAND MILES! That is true reliabilty in my book.

And in closing the real big frickin elephant in the room is dealer service departments. I know the manufacturers can't control them. But God in Heaven! Even if I had a domestic ride that was desirable and some are. The absolute crap you get from "Stealerships" would dissuade me from even going in there. Okay, Rant button off.

Why does i have to come to this ?!?! Ford can do what they want; but they had to see this coming. If Bill Ford wants to assert a political viewpoint, he shouldn't do it with shareholders' money. It's business suicide to take political stances!

I'm not here to bash the unions but the contracts they came up with, wages, inability to get rid of dead weight/workers who don't produce, pay beyond the job, health care, retirements, overly high salaries to top execs. In my opinion has all led to the problems the American automakers woes. When a company's running in the red and your top execs clear way over a million dollars somethings wrong. I think your pay should be based on your job performance on salary employees. Look at what Lee Iaccoca made when he took over Chrysler during their bailout. Nothing until they turned a profit. Unions were good but now I think in allot of cases their looking out for their top brass also. We need to study what the Japanese and how they are doing things and work on the global economy not the USA economy. What worked here 20 years ago is not going to work now. Heck what went 5 years ago is now obsolete. Were the greatest nation in the world and we need to reestablish ourselves as that. I think environmental issues have also led to allot of our problems. There is a happy medium and we need to find that spot and run with it.

The Japanese car makers have to be applauded for their advertizing and public brainwashing. Funny how everybody says how great their Lexus is and how long their Honda last. Well next time you take a ride or look in the want ads tell me where are all these supposed 200k and 300k Japanese vehicles??? Heck, Try to even find a 80's Camary? Have you ever looked inside a 5 year old Lexus?

Most Japanese car owners feel paying for $400 service intervals or $600 alternators is something to brag about. Then hear about the guy with a Cavalier that has 100k and just needs say an A/C compressor complaining about what a piece of garbage it is.


Japanese cars are engineered to be built with the least cost involved plain and simple. They make their money on the parts and service. You look at ANY component under the hood of a Lexus and compare it to a German made one and you would have to be blind to see the difference. Heck the biggest mistake the Germans have made is trying to include all the useless bells and whistles that never work after a year or so.

Last but not least are the unions that are killing themselves. Maybe somebody should explain to the guy with zero education making $75 and paying 0 for his benifts that there are laywers and doctors from ivory league schools not making that much. We are killing ourselves and our greed will ruin this country.

I think the only way to help the big 3 now is to go back to a Tarriff on Foriegn Cars.

They might accually be able to sell some cars if the Jap's would let us sell on a level paying feild with them.

We charge $0 to them, but they stick it to our products over there.

This and everything else said earlier might give us a chance to survive.

tyoneral

What seems to be the problem with the HHR? I see them all over the road around here so Chevy must be having some sales success with it.

I like that GM is doing this.

http://www.gm.com/warranty/index.jsp...=en&cmp=gm_com

Sorry, but you are way off on your japanese car interpretation. In my family there have been about 6 toyota's and well over 2m miles combined. In fact I have an aunt who bought 3 toyota's in a row, all over 150k miles, she had to buy 'new' ones because her daughters kept wrecking them. I have gone to look at Lexus's in my budget and all had over 150k miles and drove like new.

Then again, I worked at a repair shop and saw many 7-10 year old 80-110k mile BMW's with major malfunctions.

My father was a GM employee for 27 years and owned nothing but chevy's and almost every single one of them, needed some sort of repair (you would not expect) in the first year.

So yeah, the brainwashing worked, when my family got good cars from Toyota that lasted for years and miles many times more than the chevy's in my family, they brainwashed me into thinking their products were better.

I have gone back to Chevy though, with a 2002 Malibu, then a 2005 Trailblazer, and both of them required no repairs, but I didn't have them that long (up to 54k on the malibu, up to 36k on the blazer) then we traded in on a 05 Durango (stupid stupid stupid) that has been to the dealer 3 times and needs to go back and has less than 18k miles, and has had interior pieces fall off in hand.

Sorry for the rambling, but I have seen a lot of toyota's and lexus's with way over 100k miles, many of them in my own family. In fact my first brake job was on a 1985 celica with over 230k miles.

When is the last time you saw a Chevy with over 200k miles? In my family I have seen 4 Toyota's with that, and they have owned more chevy's than toyota's by a large margin.

Every day, when I go out to my driveway and get in my car to go to work. (actually a Pontiac, not a Chevy, but the argument is still the same :_paranoid ) 250k and still going strong. The only mechanical repair I'm aware of (other than brake-jobs, and fluid changes) is one outer tie-rod that I replaced at 248k. This car had been my brother's since 85k, so I know most of its history.

I'm not trying to say that GM hasn't ever turned out a bad product, or that the japanese cars haven't done a good job of building quality, just stating that I have had all positive experiences with GM, and will continue to drive GM vehicles.

Umm...Sunday. My Cousin's '88 Cheyenne. I was there for my God childs birthday party and he was showing me his odometer that read 60,000 miles on it. He bought it in '95 with 100,000 and had already flipped the odometer once himself (260,000 miles). Still going strong. My neighbor Mark has a '91 Astro Van 210,000 miles and not a single hic-cup the past 5 years. My old '77 Chevy van that I drove in High School turned 200,000 in the Summer of '89. I never had a problem with that van either. The following year I sold it to my friend Craig Irwin and he drove it for another 2 years before the main bearings finally quit on him. I've seen a lot of GM cars go over 200,000 miles. The flip side to that coin is I know a number of people that have owned Japanese cars that have had nothing but problems with them. Case in point; my Mother-In-Law's (used) '97 Toyota Celica that she bought last year that I begged her not to. 80,000 miles on it and it's nothing but a steaming pile of cow dung. Everytime she drives down from up north it's to have her brother look at it to see what's wrong. A co-worker here has a Honda Accord that she wants to turn into an artificial reef at the bottem of the Detroit River. Japanese cars have their problems too, it's just that you never hear about them because ripping on the Japanese isn't the cool thing to do. Trashing American cars is much more fun.

93 Chevy S-10... 240,000 miles and counting

FWIW: I bought a 1988 GMC 2500 Pick up with 152,000 on it for $5500. Drove it 60,000 miles (112,000 Miles) then traded it in for $3000 on a 1997 2500 Suburban with 42,000 miles. That was in 2000, I now have 155,000 on my Suburban. Yes I have replaced stuff that wears out, but I still have the same Engine, Transmission and rearend it came with. Yes, I do maintenance but other than that it is still going strong.

I routinly tow my tractor and impliments to and from my farm with it. (Trailer weight with tractor including trailer is 10,500 pounds)

My mom drives a Camry. It is a fine car. Bought new, 148,000 miles now.
Not really biased one way or the other my Suburban gets crummy milage, but the Camry can't tow my trailer.

Maybe I'm unusual?

tyoneal

Just thinking,

Thanks goodness for the POS :thumbsup: American cars, otherwise, We would be driving the mighty Toyota Corrolla in Pro-Tourning trim. Yuk!! :eek:

Can you imagine spending $60K on one of those?? :unibrow:

My last Pontiac Bonneville had 190,000 on it when I sold it. The guy who bought it drove it 500mile back home.

My 1986 442 only had 110,000 on it when it died, thanks to a woman running a red light.

My 1986 Pontiac Grand Prix had 210,000 on it when it expired thanks to faulty wiring done by a "professional" alarm installer.

My wife's Saturn had 110,000 on it. It ran fine all the way into the side of the Ford pick up she hit. Totaled both vehicles, no injuries.

My dad's last several GM wagons have all made it to 200,000 with no major problems. His current Caprice wagon has 150,000 and still going.

My mom has had a string of Buick Centuries and while they usually trade them in before they go much beyond 100,000, none of them has needed any real repairs save for one. That one needed several pistons replaced under warranty becuase of piston slap. Ran fine, just made too much noise.

My sister's old Camaro made it to 150,000, only needing valve seals.

Had an old coworker who had a Buick Century and a Saturn, each topped the 200,000 mile mark.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill
'72 442 "Inamorata"