Thinking of jumping in but...
 

Hi All,

So I have the bug to jump in and get my dream car...70-71 Firebird.
I've come across an opportunity to buy one but since I'm new to all of this I'm full with emotions and confusion. I initially thought I could take a project on myself but I'm now feeling apprehensive about it.

I uploaded a bit about the current car in mind here:
http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/1...rd-Formula-350

Would appreciate any info/advice.

Welcome to the site. I'm not sure since I'm not there to look at it in person. But, given you're new to all this, I think I would start out with spending more for a better car upfront. If this was purely a project car where you could take your time, years, and fix it up, then I would say go for it. Since you're wanting something to DD, I would start out with something that needs less work. That, or lower your expectations of what you want out of it as a DD. By that I mean, are you willing to drive it while it's simply primered and work on it as you can? You'd have to have a second more reliable car to fall back on and DD while this one was getting work done.

I'm all for trying to get your dream car and wish you well in your quest. I'd just hate to see your dream turn into a nightmare if you're expectations are in the proper place.

Good luck.

Doing the entire project yourself can be a daunting task......but you'll acquire a lot of cool tools along the way. :D

I'd never consider it due to lack of reasonable enclosed work space and the weather here. I'd pick and choose what you enjoy and can reasonably accomplish and go for it.....assuming the shell is not a complete rust bucket. :thumbsup:

What's your savings account look like? Are you currently putting away 3 or 4 thousand per month? A mediocre car restoration is going to be 50 grand in parts alone... so that's hard cash - then there's an additional investment in tools... and TIME.


I'm not trying to burst your bubble -- but the reality of doing this kind of work on these cars is - it's expensive - even doing it yourself. And the car is going to have to be down most of the time. No way to do it correctly while trying to drive it every day. These cars are O - L - D and need cleaning - and in order to do that - things have to be removed. Motors and trannys need to come out to get to the filthiest parts... and the rear end - and suspension needs to be rebuilt with bushings and ball joints etc...

I've been doing this stuff a long time - and I NEVER EVER accomplish in a day what I set out to do. A one day job usually takes two... a three day job takes the whole week.... and frankly - you get tired and there's other things in life that get in the way just when you're really cranking -- you have to clean up for a weekend wedding - or whatever.


Having said all of that --- doing these old dreams is one of the most rewarding things a guy can do... and I never get tired of it. Just beware of what's really involved.


If you don't already have some knowledge and skills --- buy a DONE car.... and just enjoy it and tinker with it.

If its cheap where you can afford to buy and running I'd say go for it BUT....

Keep it running, don't do any crazy mods to it till you can afford to.

Right now you have the opportunity and you may not get the chance again. The worst time to buy a car is when you are looking for one. Finding the car is the hard part. Specially a 71 Formula.

Hey Welcome.

Nice choice in cars a Formula Bird.

Now keep in mind you always end up selling a car for less than it cost you to build it.

Now remember what I just said, and then read your own quote from PT.

"All the 70-71 birds I'm finding that are turn-key to use as a daily and rust free are way out of my price range."

So this car will end up costing more than those out of your price range.

If that motor was rebuilt before it was parked it sat for a long time without oil circulating and with some valves open and springs fading. So it is just an old motor now. Plus look at the disarray under the hood and dirty air cleaner and ask yourself what was the quality of the rebuild?

That's a $3-4k starter (not worth the $7.5k he is asking IMHO) on a project that will cost 5 to 10 times that to complete without any big modifications.

You said you're not mechanically inclined. Find something closer to done would be my advice.

Go grind this guy down a few grand

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/cto/4547472255.html

Or keep saving your dough.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-Fire...US_Cars_Trucks

I should've been more clear. I do have my regular car but I would like this Bird to be my DD, meaning not a garage queen or strictly for car shows. I fully intend to drive the heck out of it. Patience will be difficult but that's why I would like a shop to do it.

50Gs is out of the question. I'm not looking to make this car a Pro-touring type. I just want it clean, nice looking and running so I can drive it everywhere just as if I lived in the 70s. I'd like a shop to do the work, but again nothing extreme of total restoration.
I would love to but can't find a done 71 in my price range. People always want to pay little but sell for a lot and people who own done 71's are typically the ones with $ who are in no hurry or need to sell.

See, this is exactly how I'm thinking. If I let this one go...
But I do understand what GregWeld is saying and I don't want to put myself in the position of having sit mths/yrs at a time getting nowhere and then I end up eventually trying to sell it on here.

All good points.
I fully intend to do my best at getting the cost down but I'm pretty sure he won't go that low. He'll put it on ebay before going that low and then I'm certain one of you will buy it. Lol. I seriously doubt you can find a 71 Bird in similar condition for that money. I've searched craiglist like a madman. There are 72 & up, but not 71s.
Am I way out of the park in thinking $10K will get it looking and running nice?
My guesstimate is ~$5K in body work & ~$3K for interior and ~$2K in motor/misc expenses. Again, not show car or street racer but respectable and dependable.

Notice the white San Diego Bird says looks good for it's age? That means it'll still need body/paint + wheels. I can live with brown carpet and the motor did look nice but by the time I'm done with it, if I can get it for 15k, it'll still be ~20Gs and not as nice as the Formula for the same money I think, but what do I know? That's why I'm listening to all of your advice/experience.

The 72 Bird is very nice but I really don't want to spend that much on a car I intend to drive and not keep as an investment/garage trophy. However, maybe in the long run it pays out. But I also think that as I save up, these cars just get more expensive so... that's why I think Vince is on point and this is a 71 Formula (Birth yr)

I did find this one and it's going for ~ the same money everyone is telling me to offer for the Formula. I don't think it's near the same/as good as condition as the Formula so is the asking price correct? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-Fire...US_Cars_Trucks

While we're at it, can anyone look at/inspect the car for me in San Diego?
I've been going off pics as well, I have lots of them but still only pics.

As far as grinding the guy down on price, would it be wrong for me to ask if I can take it to get an estimate from a local body shop? Is that unusual or does it work against me?

You're so far off it's not funny. I'm not trying to be mean or belittle your dream or desires. You asked for fair and honest opinions and that's what you're getting on here. Nobody is flaming you or the car... we're just "experienced" and know what the heck happens and what things cost and probably understand your expectations even better than you do.


#1 --- Paint alone is your total "thinking" budget for "decent". There WILL be rust repair which could eat that budget alone.


#2 --- Each time you touch one thing - it makes the thing next to it look way worse than it looked prior.

#3 --- Please don't start this project. You just have no idea what you're taking on and it's going to be nothing but a heartache for you.

#4 --- The fact that you want "respectable and dependable" doesn't lower the price of parts or labor vs wanting show quality. Parts is parts. My guesstimate of 50K was based on doing a baseline paint job - motor refresh - tranny and running gear looked at and minimal "bringing it up to road worthy"... and a replacement interior from one of the suppliers not a custom interior. I'm talking about just re-doing the seats and door panels and factory replacement carpet.
Once you paint this - the bumpers and trim will all look really really bad - and you WILL be talked in to fixing that as well - since you're paying labor to remove and replace these parts for paint "anyway".

#5 --- If you wanted it to be "pro-touring" like the cars on here... now you're looking at $150K to 200K or more.

#6 --- Probably the average amount of hours spent re-doing one of these cars from the ground up is 1500.... you can do the math for the rate in your area. But if you're getting paid $40 an hour - and the labor rate in your area is $65 and hour -- you can also do that math for how long it's going to take you to pay the bill.

#7 --- No tools - no skills... and you have to pay to have it worked on. Please just enjoy reading about the builds here and live vicariously. When you do have extra money --- Read "Investing 102" https://lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=34700 on Lateral-G and then when you're near retirement - you'll be a millionaire and can afford to do one of these dream cars for yourself.

You can not do a car in this condition and have it be anything "respectable" for $10K.... you could probably get SOME dependability going for that... and if you decide to do this car -- go for dependability FIRST.... and pretty LAST. Maybe you could find a buddy that will paint it in his garage... and the materials alone are going to run you a grand and it's most likely going to look pretty Earl Scheibish meaning... you really just wasted your money because you'll never be happy with it.

BEFORE you buy the car ---- ask the seller if he'd be willing to go with you and drive it to a couple shops in your area and discuss what you are thinking about and your budget and time frame. PLEASE DO THIS BEFORE BUYING.... it will really open your eyes.

MAKE SURE to really look around the shop and the other projects going on - and what you're looking for is how much (or how little) the projects in that shop appear to have been there a very long time (how much dust and disarray the parts are in). Is the trunk and interior area just full of parts and boxes? In other words the car is nothing but a storage area... Is the area around the car a working area or does it look like nobody has moved anything around there for months - maybe years....

Here's what happens ------ THE BID to do the work you agreed upon --- is doubled by what is found once work actually begins. I'm not saying this is dishonest -- but rather -- there's really no way to tell what the car "IS" until they begin to work on it. NOW --- since you were scratching to start with --- you're really screwed because work has commenced -- and you were already scraping to come up with the bid money - and that's now doubled... and your car just became the next car that sits there for months which turns into years as you loose your desire and realize there's no way to pay the bill ---- OH --- and you're now being billed $600 per month "storage fee"..... on top the bill you owe. Think about that --- that's $7200 per year for it to just sit there collecting dust.