Greg you are the man! I get it !! And totally understand where your coming from ,point well taken.. Mesh is the wheel I'm going with but I just have to sort out this blind no blind issue. And its looking like the hardware showing is the way to go for this this style of wheel. Sometimes the way you like something isn't always the best. Whan I go to Sema this year I will be taking tons of pictures of wheels . So when I get back the final choice will be made that for sure