Speedtech's new 3rd Gen Camaro suspension

[HellPhish89]

Originally Posted by chetly

Well Blake already answered why your idea wasn't used. Why build a kit like everyone else or copy someone elses design when they can use their design that follows their philosophy and expected performance levels?

Copy? No. But even the more enthusiastic 3rd gen owners arent exactly thinking of installing a suspension that is that expensive or involved.

Theres actually little available for the front suspension on these cars. Even brake kits are mostly from very small companies that modify existing spindles. Spring wise though is an ironic bright spot as Moog makes a ton of different rate OEM replacement springs.

Comes down to frustration that many of us have wanted something that is reasonably priced and is a reasonable amount of work for a reasonable improvement.

The few people that eventually will by this setup will not be disappointed but for the rest of us its back to the drawing board.

[Che70velle]

Originally Posted by HellPhish89

Copy? No. But even the more enthusiastic 3rd gen owners arent exactly thinking of installing a suspension that is that expensive or involved.

Theres actually little available for the front suspension on these cars. Even brake kits are mostly from very small companies that modify existing spindles. Spring wise though is an ironic bright spot as Moog makes a ton of different rate OEM replacement springs.

Comes down to frustration that many of us have wanted something that is reasonably priced and is a reasonable amount of work for a reasonable improvement.

The few people that eventually will by this setup will not be disappointed but for the rest of us its back to the drawing board.

Ok, so you’ve already said to us all here that your disapointed and not going to spend the money for this setup, so sit back, be patient, and wait for Blake’s more economical setup to come around. Just remember that performance, be it engine, transmission, wheels, or suspension is ALWAYS rated in dollar signs.

[RT_66_Pro_Touring]

Originally Posted by Che70velle

... so sit back, be patient, and wait for Blake’s more economical setup to come around. Just remember that performance, be it engine, transmission, wheels, or suspension is ALWAYS rated in dollar signs.

I think the disappointment comes from the expectation Blake himself setup in Post #1 of this very thread along with his comments that they never did figure out "Step one":

Originally Posted by Ben@SpeedTech

"Step one is to develop a bolt in performance suspension system including lower front control arms, a better and adjustable front strut, Articulink rear trailing arms, rear coilover conversion, and upgrade it to our better Torque Arm. We're not reinventing the wheel here, just making it much better. Some of these parts are currently already in pre production.

Step 2 is to develop an LS/T56 swap kit. Our RS sports a V6 with a blown head gasket, so naturally it will likely get a 525+ hp LS3 crate engine backed by a T56 Magnum to take it's place.

Step 3 is the real good stuff! For those that want to play with the big boys we'll be developing a new ExtReme front suspension clip

They went to "Step 3" first. I think I understand why they did. Pieces of "Step 1" are available and the average guy may not see the difference between what is currently available and a quality solution to the platform's issues. However, "Step 3" (while far and away better than any current package) is the complete other end of the cost spectrum from "Step one" for a car that can't justify the expense. Furthermore, they set the expectation for a first offering that was in the middle of the cost range.

I think the 3rd Gen community was hoping for "Step one" and a offering that aligned with the expectation they themselves set:

Originally Posted by Ben@SpeedTech

"We're not reinventing the wheel here, just making it much better"

as stated in Post #1 of this very thread.


"Much better" involves a solving the inherent geometry issues of the platform without breaking the bank, which to me, means:

1. High quality shocks that cost at least slightly less than the entire f*'ing car (just saying @DSE)

2. Solving the massive scrub radius, anti-ackerman, front roll center and antiquated steering box issues by simply offering a quality spindle. That alone would be a HUGE money maker for them.

3. Offering the torque arm solution they already have available for other platforms. (This was the only one they offer with this announcement)


Again, I understand offering the Extreme far end of the cost scale first so that the first cars that go out into the wild kick ass, but it is EXTREME. I REALLY do wish I could find even the slightest reason in my mind to justify the expenditure, I cant.

[ur-n-8]

Building a spindle to correct the anti ackerman may seem easy, but would cause many other problems. First to get pro ackerman the spindle steering arm would have to be in the barrel of the wheel. Which 1 will cause the steering arm to be very short and 2 will cause the outer tie rod end to be higher than the original. So maybe you can get a drag link that has higher inner tie rod mounting points and correct the bump steer, but ultimately the short spindle arms will make the steering very fast and the box will no longer hit the internal stops.

[Blake Foster]

Originally Posted by RT_66_Pro_Touring

I think the disappointment comes from the expectation Blake himself setup in Post #1 of this very thread along with his comments that they never did figure out "Step one":



They went to "Step 3" first. I think I understand why they did. Pieces of "Step 1" are available and the average guy may not see the difference between what is currently available and a quality solution to the platform's issues. However, "Step 3" (while far and away better than any current package) is the complete other end of the cost spectrum from "Step one" for a car that can't justify the expense. Furthermore, they set the expectation for a first offering that was in the middle of the cost range.

I think the 3rd Gen community was hoping for "Step one" and a offering that aligned with the expectation they themselves set: as stated in Post #1 of this very thread.


"Much better" involves a solving the inherent geometry issues of the platform without breaking the bank, which to me, means:

1. High quality shocks that cost at least slightly less than the entire f*'ing car (just saying @DSE)

2. Solving the massive scrub radius, anti-ackerman, front roll center and antiquated steering box issues by simply offering a quality spindle. That alone would be a HUGE money maker for them.

3. Offering the torque arm solution they already have available for other platforms. (This was the only one they offer with this announcement)


Again, I understand offering the Extreme far end of the cost scale first so that the first cars that go out into the wild kick ass, but it is EXTREME. I REALLY do wish I could find even the slightest reason in my mind to justify the expenditure, I cant.

Time changes ideas and goals changed as we went through the process. The idea of trying to IMPROVE anything that is on the market now with simple bolt on's was just not going to happen, how do you improve the geometry? with a strut? you can move the Lower ball joint forward and out slightly. The scrub again, pretty difficult to make any improvement there when the strut dictates the wheel fitment. We actually looked at using the our Forged spindle with the strut to make some gains but there is just not enough material to safely mount the strut to. Upper caster / camber plates what do you do there, make a fancy little gear to adjust it with, you can only do so much with the factory locations. We did improve the torque arm and added coil overs to the rear. BUT due to the factory set up we had to come up with some way to mount the front of the torque arm. Well we did BUT you need to use both components. The front is a radical departure from what anyone has done. We are confidant there is enough VALUE in the package that it will catch on, But who knows. We will see. To just do what everyone else has done made no practical sense. then it is just becomes
"Well i can get so and so's for this much "

Compare our offering to the other main players in the market.
Let me know if there is any additional Value in our package
Here is how ours breaks down
Front "SUBFRAME" Same components and geometry as the Extreme subframe for a first or second gen 6999.00 yes it needs to weld in but it will be easier than mini tubs!!!

Mid Frame connector kit. includes trans mount and torque arm mount as well as front roll cage mounts and room for long tube headers (yes you need to buy our headers as well Sorry) and dual exhaust.
999.00 you could actually use this all on its own. if a guy was doing it in stages this would be the first part to install.

Torque arm fully bolt in (there is some trimming) and you will need a 9" as all the brackets are designed for the 3" tube also the torque arm mounting billet parts. (again if the 7.5" diff was worth using we may have built parts to mount it) but it is again not worth spending any money on IMO 2999.00

I will apologize if you think I need to, for building a product that ended up to be MUCH more that some of you expected.
I didn't read any post like this when DSE came out with the Mustang program, that was ALL GOOD, not sure I understand what the difference is? You think the same thing will happen when we do Mustang parts??lol
I will make sure to NOT say it will start with bolt in parts !!

[ironworks]

People have no clue how much work it takes to develop parts and test em and figure out a way to build them efficiently and then sell em at some kind of a profit.

There is an ass for every seat and a girl for every guy. Every price point serves a market. McDonalds sells a burger just like Tahoe Joes. They all serve demographic. The guys at McDonalds will complain its to expensive at Tahoe joes and he guys at Tahoe Joes will complain the McDonalds food will kill you in 30 days.

I'm sure the product will work great and serve the market your after. I'm sure there are plenty of people who will spend way more then they should on a car. I work with those guys daily.

Only the people who can't afford it or don't to afford it complain that something is too nice. I broke up with a girl once who was too pretty and had too much money. I wanted something more normal.

[Matt@BOS]

Originally Posted by ironworks

I broke up with a girl once who was too pretty and had too much money. I wanted something more normal.

This logic might explain why you opened up a shop.

Blake, and Speedtech crew, - I'm excited to see these parts hit the market! I'm sure there will be buyers who understand the value. Anyone who has built a car before understands its better to spend more the first time than to buy mediocre parts and upgrade again as soon as one's skills or desires to go faster "outgrow" the mediocre stuff.

Matt

[67droptop]

So I priced DSE front suspension, rear suspension and subframe connecters. With the single adjustable JRI it was $8500. Then a Turn one 12-1 steering box is $1400. So in the end its close to the same price. Will the SLA be better? Hard to argue with the DSE-Z performance but its also Kyle Tucker driving and $6000 in shocks...
If you cant fab then neither is going to be cheap

[Build-It-Break-it]

You'll also need a set of custom headers. That's another $1600 for the ones Speedtech has for their extreme subframe. Not sure how much the DSE ones are.

Oh and possibly steering column. I know at least for the 68 camaro with the extreme subframe the steering column most people have won't work . Blake might want step in the that if that'll be an added cost for people to.

[Blake Foster]

Originally Posted by Build-It-Break-it

You'll also need a set of custom headers. That's another $1600 for the ones Speedtech has for their extreme subframe. Not sure how much the DSE ones are.

Oh and possibly steering column. I know at least for the 68 camaro with the extreme subframe the steering column most people have won't work . Blake might want step in the that if that'll be an added cost for people to.

Headers are 1499.00 sorry 321 stainless and they fit, what are you going to do.
steering column will not need to be changed just shorten the stick out. that column is to integral to the wiring and stuff to just change it.