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  #21  
Old 12-18-2006, 12:18 PM
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XcYZ XcYZ is offline
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Great post as always, Mark.
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  #22  
Old 12-18-2006, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mean 69
..................Playing on Steveo's blah blah blah comment on the RTH2 event, his paddle shifter most likely didn't make the car go any faster, so why bother running one and spending the extra money? 'cause it's cool......
Correct. Much like the leaf to 4 link comparison, there was no appreciable performance advantage between manual and auto.
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  #23  
Old 12-18-2006, 03:07 PM
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Ěs this the first ever "lets turn every stone to find the correct answer" topic here on hard core suspension kits ? I really hope so!

One word to all vendors on business; As for regular guy from the "woods of camaros" - like me- these suspension tricks are really not so clear! Even following this and PT site for a long time. As you remember "first" came twister,every magazine said it was really good,then mule with mother of QL -even better ! Now 3 link way better and at the same time Chicane swears for good leafs

So this isn't really going anywhere for me

And yes I am a victim of good advertising and reputation of DSE,and now I am reading between the lines, these suspension gurus don't know how to make good leafs?

I wish I could try every possible combination of available systems out there but I can't afford to! I can honestly say I may never want to go for hard laps on a track,but still want my car be able to handle it.

Mark i am happy to hear at rear seat is still useable with 3 link. Can you post pic or two how it look like ? And plese tell me what kind of combination would work with 335s ?

Lets continue
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  #24  
Old 12-18-2006, 11:52 PM
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blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Hey look everybody, I'm an asshat.


Quote:
Originally Posted by streetfytr68
( I've personally seen ) DSE's Quadra-Link and DSE leaf springs run within a tenth of a second of each other.
Well that right there sums up my point. Since there is nothing special about the DSE leafs, meaning that they lack various and superior attributes of todays available leaf technology, what might that say about the performance of the QL vs. the average barney bolt on lowering spring like DSE's ?? Now how about vs. a design specific leaf spring ??

That alone completes any arguement that one can have a leaf set-up to unquestionably meet and/or beat various link suspensions. Now as for the adjustability... the link systems pretty much have it hands down, for the most part. The leaf system, if run with a DA / TA Penske or Moton comes right back into the game... at a near absurd cost, but still under the link systems. Believe it or not, the ride height is adjustable, albiet not as easy as it is with the coil-over systems. I am not knocking link systems what-so-ever. Long before LatD, I once dreamed a 3-link was the cats meow... and now there is no question... its even better than I dreamed.

But... since an expert with a super human medulla oblongata is now present, Ill skip the part that there are those who have actually driven and have the actual experience of a properly designed leaf ....vs.... modern late model IRS systems, beyond the grandure of mere visual observations at a single weekend event.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowtieracing
... Now 3 link way better and at the same time Chicane swears for good leafs.

...these suspension gurus don't know how to make good leafs?

...and plese tell me what kind of combination would work with 335s ?
Yup. Good leafs or a 3-link. But that's just my feeble opinion.

Not everyone knows leafs. Its a dying art anymore because of the mother of invention and the insight of todays engineers and designers. I was just lucky enough to learn leafs from Ole Dickeypoo Guldstrand, the old school Penske cats and not to forget to mention, Ben and Tony Elkins. Trust me, there is a whole world that hasent even been shared in the way of leaf springs.

A combination to balance out the use of 335's ?? In a 1st Gen F-body... how about something like 315's.
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  #25  
Old 12-19-2006, 07:21 AM
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Thanks Tom. I re-read this thread 17 times trying to figure out exactly what the hell you're recommending. After this reply, it seems clear:

a) Your magic pixie dust leaf springs, OR
b) the Lateral-g 3 Link.

which is to say....Your "anything but DSE" agenda.

Understood. Funny thing is....I don't disagree with the technical content of your replies. I only disagree with the context. Off the shelf leaf springs are more than adequate for a pro-touring application. Other than mediocre ride quality and a lack of adjustability, off the shelf leaf springs from DSE, Hotchkis, GW, etc. will take just about anything that a pro-touring car can throw at them with the exception of full blown 10/10ths competition use. That includes track days, auto-crossing and spirited back road driving. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out. Just someone who drives the hell out of a bunch of cars.

As for the Lateral-g 3 link, I've never seen one in person or seen it operate. I'm sure I will get that opportunity in the near future since one is installed in one of the projects that I 'm involved with--Jake's 68. And I'm sure it will work excellent.

As is the case with every other system that I have experienced, I doubt that the 3 link will offer any real performance advantage at 4/10ths or 8/10ths. Ride quality--yes; Adjustability--yes. But the real limitation to all of these suspension systems is that most pro-touring enthusiasts do not want to sacrifice their paint jobs. So 10/10ths never gets realized. Save your jibberish for posts that specifically inquire about true competition driving. Otherwise, try to be honest about these parts relative to how they will be used. You don't need a space shuttle to run errands around town. And spirited, backroad driving accounts for about 4/10ths of the average pro-touring car's capabilities. So very few of these cars achieve 8/10ths--let alone 10/10ths. You've got all the right answers, but you keep getting the questions wrong.

As for my experience, I will gladly meet you in the middle of the country for a head to head challenge. My off the shelf leaf springs against your magic pixie dust leaf springs. You should clean all of that garbage out of your car's cockpit though. Our cars deserve better than to be treated like a dumpsters Your car hasn't moved since the last millenium. Post a current picture of your car please--with today's newspaper on the hood.
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Last edited by Steve Chryssos; 12-19-2006 at 10:06 AM. Reason: Speling/grammer (I was tired)
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  #26  
Old 12-19-2006, 10:02 AM
Bowtieracing Bowtieracing is offline
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Thank you Steve!!!!

You answered all my questions and my suspicions in single reply

Brgs "4/10 racer"
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  #27  
Old 12-19-2006, 10:37 AM
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Seriously, I hate getting into a pissing match with Tom, but people are being misled. His statements are technically accurate, but the application is wrong. His remarks apply to racing--not pro-touring. Every statement is fully applcable to a race car where lap times are all that matter; where banging fenders or an off track excusrion is a possible by-product of winning. But that favorite back road? The one with the 30 mph recommended speed limits? A typical pro-touring car can run that 30mph road at about 70-75mph without breaking a sweat. That's 4/10ths--NOT racing. That is what almost all pro-touring enthusiasts will experience. If you're taking that 30mph road at 90mph then you're either stupid or negligent. Ultimate parts will not change that. Buy the ultimate parts because you want them. I do. But don't buy them because someone told you that the ordinary off the shelf parts are unacceptable.

Even those few pro-touring enthusiasts who enjoy track days or autocross are not willing to push their cars to the limit. They want to hot lap, but they don't want to lose grip and slide into a wall or another car. Hitting curbs or tire barriers is unacceptable. So they hold back. I do.

The original post makes no mention of competition or maximum performance. So why bring custom $1200 leafs into the conversation? Why tell people that the ordinary parts do not work? What is the possible benefit? Why waste people's time with imaginary parts? How much is shipping from Never-neverland? What is your shop's phone number? What forms of payment do you accept? What's your URL? Exactly how is the average enthusiast supposed to acquire these extraordinary leafs? Will tinkerbell deliver them?

I'll tell you what: I suggest we form two race teams. The Happy Idiots (that's my team) against the Rocket Scientists (that's Tom's team) Five pro-touring cars per team. All on approved full street tires. We meet at AirRides Putnam Park event and square off.
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  #28  
Old 12-19-2006, 10:42 AM
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Where's that darn popcorn eating smilie?
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  #29  
Old 12-19-2006, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mkelcy
Where's that darn popcorn eating smilie?
I dont think we need it. This post isnt bashing or fight between two. Purpose of this post is to answer regular joes-like me - 4/10 racing need with good pro touring looks. Finally we are getting there-thanks for Steve!

Now i know what to do with my rear suspension-and saved even few bucks compared to my orginal plan wich was DSE QL. Now i am sure i will get 100% what i am after with deep tubs and 3" drop leafs.

Only thing wich is still "open" for me is steering and wheel / tire combo.
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  #30  
Old 12-19-2006, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetfytr68

I'll tell you what: I suggest we form two race teams. The Happy Idiots (that's my team) against the Rocket Scientists (that's Tom's team) Five pro-touring cars per team. All on approved full street tires. We meet at AirRides Putnam Park event and square off.
agreed, can i come play??!!!??
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