...

Go Back   Lateral-g Forums > Technical Discussions > Chassis and Suspension
User Name
Password



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-13-2010, 02:56 PM
LowchevyII's Avatar
LowchevyII LowchevyII is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Anaheim, Ca
Posts: 440
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default DSE vs TCI vs Art Morrison

At the moment ive been looking at front clips and rear suspension options for my 70 nova. DSE and Morrison make some amazing looking stuff and have the performance and following to back them. So my question is how good is the TCI stuff? the old adage says "you get what you pay for" and the TCI clip is about 2-2.5k cheaper than the DSE and Morrison stuff. Is this adage pretty applicable to the TCI stuff?


thanks guys,

jeff
__________________
Jeff Weidner
1970 nova in pieces
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-13-2010, 03:51 PM
6spdcamaro 6spdcamaro is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 242
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

TCI performed really well in the super chevy handling test. I believe it won the autocross, but they did say it rode harder than the others also.
__________________
Ken
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-13-2010, 03:55 PM
70rs's Avatar
70rs 70rs is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Western Washington State
Posts: 3,683
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Don't forget Speedtech. Great guys, products and prices.

They also did great in this test.
__________________
Eric

1970 Camaro.....on the road someday!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-13-2010, 05:52 PM
214Chevy's Avatar
214Chevy 214Chevy is offline
Lateral-g Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: DALLAS, Texas
Posts: 4,541
Thanks: 283
Thanked 536 Times in 338 Posts
Default

Bro, that old agade is very much alive today as it was yesterday. You do get what you pay for. That's part of the reason I have twice as much more money in my Chevelle as I should, because I took cheaper routes the first time only to have and go and redo it a second time. Now, as far as the TCI stuff winning the autocross, it would have to depend on more variables than the product itself, such as skill of the driver, etc. But the part alone may be inferior to DSE or ART Morrison. Just my opinion since you asked.
__________________
'68 C10 swb
'69 Camaro convertible
'72 Chevelle

Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-13-2010, 06:02 PM
LowchevyII's Avatar
LowchevyII LowchevyII is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Anaheim, Ca
Posts: 440
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 70rs View Post
Don't forget Speedtech. Great guys, products and prices.

They also did great in this test.

Oh without a doubt. kinda forgot to mention them as well. they are up there with the DSE and Morrison stuff for sure both quality and price wise. would love to be able to afford any of the three but being 22 years old, my budget is super limited. just trying to see if its worth it for me to wait and save up more 2500 extra dollars for one of these "big three" subframes or just go with the TCI and call it a day or to modify the stock subframe. Any input on the best mods for teh stock front would be greatly appreciated too. How bout the TCI 4 link, anyone have any input on it. for about 1200 bucks doesnt seem like too bad a deal. or should i stick with maybe say hotchkis leafs or teh DSE mini tub kit for 1300


Quote:
Originally Posted by 509Chevelle View Post
Bro, that old agade is very much alive today as it was yesterday. You do get what you pay for. That's part of the reason I have twice as much more money in my Chevelle as I should, because I took cheaper routes the first time only to have and go and redo it a second time. Now, as far as the TCI stuff winning the autocross, it would have to depend on more variables than the product itself, such as skill of the driver, etc. But the part alone may be inferior to DSE or ART Morrison. Just my opinion since you asked.
Exactly what im asking for. Love to hear the opinions of you guys. makes my decisions easier and more educated. keep the opinions, praise and criticisms coming
__________________
Jeff Weidner
1970 nova in pieces

Last edited by LowchevyII; 03-13-2010 at 06:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-13-2010, 09:28 PM
realcoray realcoray is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 195
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

I have no experience with any of these subframes, I'm modifying a stock one. Cost wise it's probably the cheapest solution even when you go for expensive parts. AME for example sells the bare frame for like 3k, and I will have less than that with AFX spindles, new upper/lower arms, springs, shocks, sway bar, and steering.

The aftermarket ones may weigh slightly less but I doubt there will be much difference in the performance.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-13-2010, 10:02 PM
ProdigyCustoms ProdigyCustoms is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,859
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

I have this conversation all day everyday. We sell more subframes then anyone (All brands combined), selling Art Morrison, Chris Alston, DSE, Speedtech. We also sell a lot of different products to modify a stock subframe.

There are a 100 comments but I will hit on some bullet points on a couple things mentioned so far.

The numbers say the AME and DSE are the class of the field and the performance proves that. Neither came to the shootout so there is no comparison against the cars that did show. Yes they are the most money, yes, for a all out (I'm gonna push it 100%, I have to win!) project they are the choice. Both of these are equally fantastic, both handle fantastic and ride awesome to, but they are not required for a cool Pro Touring ride.

Yes the TCI did well in the autocross. But there is much more to ultimate handling then just autocross times. Ride is extremely important. Ever ride a go kart? Go Karts handle...........they don't ride very good. I understand the TCI car did not do very well in the ride category. And ride is what you do 99% of the time. So is ultimate handling so important we throw ride away? We can do that with a stock subframe.

The OP did not ask about Speedtech but the name was thrown in. According to the numbers, the Speedtech frame should not be able to compete with the AME and DSE frame, but somehow they were able to win the autocross....................... on 19s and 20s to boot! I installed the very first Speedtech frame in EmptyNest and I can tell you the Speedtech subframe is a no joke piece.

I do not sell any of cheapo subframe solutions. Change for the sake of change subframes as I call them. No one mentioned a modded factory subframe, but if it were me, and if I was on a budget, and could not fund a $4800 to $6700 Subframe. I would rather mod a stock subframe with killer parts. Right at $2500 to $3000 will put some really good parts on the stock subframe, in conjunction with some very minor mods that are free, and will make the competitive with the big boys.

Don't think so? Here is a interesting tid bit. RTTHs 2009, Top 5 cars. Not in order. Badd Penny, possibly the second most sorted Camaro on the planet with C6 front and 3 link rear should be the world beater and is one serious toy. DSE 2nd gen Camaro, probably the most sorted Camaro on the planet, Brian Finchs 2nd gen DSE clone car, Air Ride Velocity, Running stock subframe and Air Ride lead most of the day, and ready for this.........Jason Hubers stock subframe leaf spring car! The difference in times on a 35 second track was less then 1 second, the Air Ride car, Stock subframe and Air Ride, was within 100ths of the winner in the Top 5 shootout!

Driver, no sir, every one of these guys are awesome drivers. So I believe the cars all got into the top 5 based on the cars merits, not drivers merit.


We build a ton of cars in our shop. On any given day there will be cars getting mild Hotchkis TVS kits and 12.2" brakes, 17" wheels, 383 SBC, and right beside it a no expense all DSE, 14" Stoptech braked, Forge wheeled, built LS7, or a Full AME suspended, 14" Wilwood, Forgeline 18s, 540 700HP monster!! All at the same time. So I get to test drive, shake down, beat on, everything from mild to wild. I get to use what I sell, and get real feedback right in the seat of my pants!

So what am I saying? You do not have a AME / DSE budget, you don't need it! Unless you need that last 1/2 to 3/4 of a second! And then you have to be willing to push the car hard enough and be capable of pushing the car hard enough to take advantage of all that awesomeness.

I have a friend with a 2200HP Pro Street car...............the car is to pretty, he is nowhere near capable, and unwilling to use all the power. But he had the money to build it so he did.

You don't have the money? You don't need it. Don't blow your budget this early in the project, there are plenty of little things that are going to sneak up and break your budget for you.
__________________
Frank Serafine
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-13-2010, 11:07 PM
ItDoRun's Avatar
ItDoRun ItDoRun is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Zachary, Louisiana
Posts: 921
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

What do you plan on doing with the car?
__________________
Chris
1968 Camaro: DSE tubs and sub frame connectors, Chassisworks G-Link rear suspension, Speedtech upper and lower control arms, Chicane front coilover conversion with QA1's, Baer brakes, 18" Forgeline SO3's, Vintage Air, 6.0L LS 417 rwhp, 4L65E, Moser 12 Bolt w/3.73's....
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2391864

Build Thread: https://lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=19253
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-13-2010, 11:57 PM
JRouche JRouche is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Ventura County
Posts: 253
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProdigyCustoms View Post

You don't have the money? You don't need it. Don't blow your budget this early in the project, there are plenty of little things that are going to sneak up and break your budget for you.
I have to agree with alot of what Frank said, only because it makes sense. I will focus on his last statement though. You really will have added expenses popping up that will add up. The little things can eat up hundred dollar bills fast.

And 509Chevelle's comments on moving one step forward to just go two backward. I have been in that situation. Built up a system just to remove it all and start over because of improper planning on my part. Over anxious or not educated to begin with. At least you are trying to educate yourself ahead of time. Smart move.

And you have realcoray making some great points that were also talked about. Use the money to modify but not replace the existing framework. You will get the most bang for your buck going that route. But some guys want a remove and replace for a few reasons. One that I see is not really knowing what to do. And thats an honest reason. Thats why the after market makes complete systems. It takes any guess work out for the guy that can figure it all out but looks at it as being the same outcome just to have a company work it all out with components that are proven to work together.

Funny thing about our hobby, and its a hobby for me. Some folks are in it for the business. But for a hobby guy like myself there are several levels of engagement. Some like to ship the car off to have it modified. Some will look to replace some components on an existing frame. Some want to build their own frame and choose the parts they want. Others will look for a system to incorporate into their car. Thats whats great about working on cars. You can modify the car with any of the above approaches. Usually money and skills play a part in the decisions. But not always. There are other needs that will influence the direction a guy takes.

For me? If I was to start up a new project. And money isnt pouring out of my trees and I do have the ability to weld up a frame. I would buy from speedtech. They look to still be a grassroots company that builds some IMO very strong sub-frames. Some of the other companies have gotten top heavy with the overhead. So you will pay for that overhead. And some of the companies still have the large overhead (even larger) and they sell systems that are less expensive but the amount of steel is lacking. They need to trim the cost of the final product so it is shaved from somewhere, prolly actual raw materials.

Im not saying the frame with the most metal is better. But I will say the company that you are looking at cant provide the same amount of raw materials in their sub-frame that speedtech will give you. And speedtech doesn't just overbuild for lack of engineering. They place structural members where they are needed and dont have to worry about the added cost due to a lower overhead. The translation. You get more for YOUR money. JR
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-14-2010, 01:29 AM
Vegas69's Avatar
Vegas69 Vegas69 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,663
Thanks: 86
Thanked 210 Times in 119 Posts
Default

If I started a new project tomorrow, DSE subframe would be #1 on the list. It's just that good. The front steer rack gives you a ton of room for big headers and a factory z bar. The C6 spindles allow stock brakes. The splined sway bar is an easy change and not that expensive. My car with the DSE sub and G Bar rides as good as my 08 550i 95% of the time. It handles waaaaaaaaay better. Last time I autocrossed I left the front rebound and compressioin setting in street trim. Best the car ever felt. I do stiffen up the aise end.

One a budget I'd call up the boys at speedtech and buy a set of their spindles, control arms, tie rod sleeves, body bushings, and call it a day.
__________________
Todd
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright Lateral-g.net