Speed Tech or Art Morrison, DSE 69 Camaro Frame

[Stuart Adams]

Originally Posted by snappytravis

Thanks for your replys guys, there are a lot of choices out there and I don't want to buy something then call for support and have to push 1, Frank at prodigy I will give you a call today if that's okay need to talk to you about a.c. as well. thanks again for good advice. I think every company I call will tell me theres is the best.

Your last sentence said it all. Talk is cheap. Look at real world driving events, testing, customer service replies from customers. Once you compare apples to apples the answer will be glaring right at you. Good luck with the project.

[Blake Foster]

Originally Posted by DOOM

Blake.... You know I did'nt mean any disrespect by that comment.... I did'nt mean for it to come out that way....

Didn't take it out of context. i was thanking you for keeping us at the top of your list.

[youthpastor]

Speedtech is a quality product and super easy to install- front or rear systems- a major improvement over stock stuff and it just flat works!

[Ron in SoCal]

Originally Posted by Stuart Adams

Your last sentence said it all. Talk is cheap. Look at real world driving events, testing, customer service replies from customers. Once you compare apples to apples the answer will be glaring right at you. Good luck with the project.

I went through this decision a year ago. At that time, Frank said to me, "they all have great geometery and top 5 cars at RTTH are within a couple 10ths of a second. (to be fair, we we're actually talking about front and rear suspension at this point in the conversation, but the point made is the same). It all comes down to the driver and your car's set up." And he's right. All these vendors make great, track proven products. A front sub from any of them will require just about the same install. To me, DSE has the hydroformed sub that looks OEM. AME has the fabricated look and SpeedTech arms and sub just look killer (welcome Blake ), so it comes down to personal preference. From a price point, DSE costs a little more than AME, SpeedTech a bit less than AME and they're all good companies that are track/street tested. So pick one and don't look back. You'll love it...

[strtlegal]

Blakes only down fall is he in Canadian..Eh?

Your Welcom Blake

[Blake Foster]

And your point is????

[6spdcamaro]

Detroit speed is the best of the best. They win every single event that they attend... by a lot. Their test cars have seen 10's of thousands of miles on the street and track. The geometry, quality, customer service, and components from them are the best in the industry. It is a lot of money, but you get what you pay for.

The Art Morrison piece is also very nice. It is close behind the DSE frame for close to the same money. One thing about the Morrison frame that I do not like is (correct me if i'm wrong) that in the Corvette control arms, they retain the stock soft rubber bushings while detroit speed utilizes delrin (no deflection).

The Speedtech subframe is also a good choice for certain applications and their nova has seen quite a bit of track time recently. It's best (and worst) feature is that it allows you to use suspension components you may have already bought before you decided to go aftermarket. This feature comes at a big cost. The speedtech subframe, unlike the DSE and AME, has the same geometry as a modded stock subframe. They restricted themselves to utilizing stock spindles, stock pickup points and control arm lengths with exception to the "built in g-mod", which costs $18 on a stock sub. There is a lot of variables in an independent suspension, and these restrictions require that sacrifices be made somewhere. The Speedtech subframe is the "best" bang for your buck, but that is because it is based on a stock subframe, which really is the best for the money. I'm not trying to brainlessly bash speedtech, because they are a good company, with good products and service, it's just that too many people falsely think they are getting all the offerings of an aftermarket sub, for much less money.

I know you didn't mention this in your original posting, but it is a valid option so I thought I would point it out.
Jakes Rod Shop sell a bolt in subframe that has scratch designed geometry, c6 spindles, and high quality custom valved bilstien coil overs. His cars are also tracked on a regular basis and is very competitive. He runs right behind DSE cars with about 150hp less. Good components, good track record, and at $6000 it's priced slightly lower than the DSE and AME pieces.

[Teetoe_Jones]

Originally Posted by 6spdcamaro

Detroit speed is the best of the best. They win every single event that they attend... by a lot. Their test cars have seen 10's of thousands of miles on the street and track. The geometry, quality, customer service, and components from them are the best in the industry. It is a lot of money, but you get what you pay for.

They restricted themselves to utilizing stock spindles, stock pickup points and control arm lengths with exception to the "built in g-mod", which costs $18 on a stock sub. There is a lot of variables in an independent suspension, and these restrictions require that sacrifices be made somewhere. The Speedtech subframe is the "best" bang for your buck, but that is because it is based on a stock subframe, which really is the best for the money. I'm not trying to brainlessly bash speedtech, because they are a good company, with good products and service, it's just that too many people falsely think they are getting all the offerings of an aftermarket sub, for much less money.

Not technically accurate. The geometry of a DSE based subframe is great; the product is great, the service is great. But the Speedtech frame with the ATS tall spindle will exceed the geometry available in both the DSE and AME frames by a good margin. The amount of negative camber gain per inch of suspension travel is possible to exceed even the most aggressive settings on either DSE or AME frames. Add in the revised bumpsteer, and amount of caster and the frame is just as good as any offering from the big name guys.

Regardless it all comes down to driver. Look at the One Lap Camaro with David Pozzi behind the wheel. It beat up and bested DSE framed cars many, many, times over; it was all done with a modified factory subframe and a tall spindle.

Tyler

[Blake Foster]

The Speedtech subframe is also a good choice for certain applications and their nova has seen quite a bit of track time recently. It's best (and worst) feature is that it allows you to use suspension components you may have already bought before you decided to go aftermarket. This feature comes at a big cost. The speedtech subframe, unlike the DSE and AME, has the same geometry as a modded stock subframe. They restricted themselves to utilizing stock spindles, stock pickup points and control arm lengths with exception to the "built in g-mod", which costs $18 on a stock sub. There is a lot of variables in an independent suspension, and these restrictions require that sacrifices be made somewhere. The Speedtech subframe is the "best" bang for your buck, but that is because it is based on a stock subframe, which really is the best for the money. I'm not trying to brainlessly bash speedtech, because they are a good company, with good products and service, it's just that too many people falsely think they are getting all the offerings of an aftermarket sub, for much less money.

Just wanted to add a couple things to this. Even tho the Speedtech sub uses stock pick up points . the main rails and arms have been redesigned to give clearance for up to 10" wide front rims and include Delrin bushings and stainless steel X Shafts. You have the option of using the stock spindle with or with out the G mod. and the ability to tune the camber curve anywhere in between the 2 points, also with the addition of the Tall AFX spindle you get a camber curve that is as good as any. you also get coil over shocks with a revised motion ratio. the sub is much more ridgid than the stock sub ever was as well as being lighter by about 15 lbs (not much but lighter all the same)
I don't understand what you mean when you say it's just that too many people falsely think they are getting all the offerings of an aftermarket sub, for much less money.

You mention that sacrifices must be made, be assured that DSE and AME also made sacrifices in their design.

Just as a compairson the DSE 2 gen was only 0.7 seconds quicker than the Speedtech Nova on the auto X at the Optima Ultimate Street Car Invitational and that was the FIRST time our car had actually been timed arround an auto X.

Another thing to consider is what is the potential customer doing with the car and what is the budget?

Thank you for the compliment by the way.

Hope this adds to the topic.

[6spdcamaro]

Originally Posted by Teetoe_Jones

Not technically accurate. The geometry of a DSE based subframe is great; the product is great, the service is great. But the Speedtech frame with the ATS tall spindle will exceed the geometry available in both the DSE and AME frames by a good margin. The amount of negative camber gain per inch of suspension travel is possible to exceed even the most aggressive settings on either DSE or AME frames. Add in the revised bumpsteer, and amount of caster and the frame is just as good as any offering from the big name guys.

Regardless it all comes down to driver. Look at the One Lap Camaro with David Pozzi behind the wheel. It beat up and bested DSE framed cars many, many, times over; it was all done with a modified factory subframe and a tall spindle.

Tyler

Tyler,
I wanted to say first that i'm fairly new to suspension geometry, but i'm learning, so feel free to correct me if anything I say is wrong. I'm here to learn just like the OP.
I remember reading a post a while ago, and I can't seem to find it now, by marcus from sc&c. He had posted the camber gain numbers of a few different combinations, and I believe that the ATS spindle when coupled with the guldstrand mod had a camber gain of about .85* per inch (again, correct me if i'm wrong). While more camber gain is generally desirable, like everything it is a compromise. What does this camber gain do to the roll center height, and the lateral roll center migration? How much does it shorten the instant center?
When I mentioned the DSE, AME, and JRS frames have better geometry I was talking about more than the Camber (gain), caster and bump steer. There are a lot of other things like the instant center, king ping inclination, scrub radius, side scrub, RC, roll center migration, anti-dive etc. that effect the stability and handling of a car.
I honestly don't know the numbers of the different subframes, so a lot of this is based on assumption.
And I agree about the driver being more important.

I appreciate the help.