"The Bet" Suspension Thread - 75 BBC Camaro

[DDY RCKT]

Just in case any of you haven't read the original thread, the details of the bet are outlined here: https://lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=12083

So, having read the scenario, you know what must be done. The M3 must be destroyed. Bascially, those things are amazing in the turns. I'll easily be able to make up plenty of time on the straights with at least twice his power.

But I don't want the Camaro to be a slouch rolling the curves.

So my options are to replace the factory suspension bits with newer racer parts, or replace the subframe at a cost of $4000-$7000, depending on who's subframe I choose. Martz is very nice, and $4K, DSE and Jim Meyer have very nice setups for the $7K range.

So now I open the floor up the the more experienced members here for suggestions on what path to take to get the Camaro in shape to repeat the outcome of WWII?

[novanutcase]

Posted this in your original thread:

You might want to hit up alot of the subframe companies to sponsor you with one of their subs. This would be an excellent way for them to demonstrate how good their product really is, not just claims and skewed magazine articles, but an average joe that, with company ABC's product in it, smoked one of the best handling production cars out their! There's a certain company with 3 letters in their name that are starting to make your year subs and rear suspensions. They are one of the best companies out their!
Same deal with the other parts(Brakes, tires, etc.)
This, and the $50 paint job(LOL!), just might bring you in on budget!

Good Luck!

John

[NOT A TA]

If you're seriously gonna go for it with a 12,000.00 budget I'd suggest you keep it simple. Build a car like my Firebird but lighter and with more power. Mine cost about 10-11 thou several years back.

Tires!
The widest stickiest tires you can get away with! If you can mini tub the rear within budget do it. I run 315 35 17's and 275 40 17's without tubs but the 315 rears won't fit on Camaro's without mini tubbing. I run Yokohama AO 32's but there's other tires out there also. Light weight 17" wheels without blowing the budget.

Weight!
Trunk mount the battery in a cheap box to the inside (pass side if they run clockwise there). Replace the front bumper with a cheap fiberglass one for the "race"(I have one on my 74 Camaro and it only weighs a couple lbs)and use light weight mounts for it instead of the shocks. The weight of the battery, bumper, and bumper mounts is cantilevered in front of the front wheels and makes a huge difference. Ditch the inner fenderwells(for the race) and air cond. system if it has them now. The lightweight front bumper isn't a safe idea on the street so keep the orig to put back on for daily driving. Install a factory front spoiler and keep the rear one to add downforce. The rear Camaro one is actually better than the TA one I use on my Firebird.

Suspension
Hotchkis kit (orig designed for 71 Camaro) includes springs sways tie rod adjusters etc and get the offset upper control arm shafts from them. They also have Bilsteins to match if you want or there's some adjustable ones available to aid with tuning. Global west upper and lower control arm Del-A-Lum bushings unless your budget allows buying the tubular arms with the bushings already in them. Subframe connectors(weld in if you're confident with a welder) Solid or Poly body mounts.

By purchasing a suspension kit you eliminate the guesswork of what works well with what. You also eliminate the learning/tuning suspension problems. just get the front end aligned to the specs they give you and you're done. Suspension engineers have already done all the development and testing! It won't stick like a racecar but should give you enough cornering capability be good enough in the corners to use the power in the straights to win.

Engine/trans/rear
I don't think you need to blow the budget on a 6 speed for the "race", you really only use a couple gears on most tracks so if you gear the rear accordingly then a 3 or 4 speed is all ya need for this kind of race and budget. I use a 2.72 or a 2.41 10 bolt posi rear for road tracks with a 3 speed auto so I can hit 150 MPH in the straights without killing the motor. It's not drag racing from a dead stop so you won't need those 3.73's and 4.10 kind of gears. Sounds like you'll have the BBC so you'll have plenty of horsepower even naturally aspirated with no power adders.

Brakes
The 2nd gen cars have pretty good spindles and brakes so for your "race" just get a good set of semi metallic pads and shoes (bedded in properly on freshly machined seasoned rotors and drums) and make sure the system is optimized with a new master, hardlines, and the flexibles. Use the Ford heavy Duty DOT3 fluid which holds up as well as "race" fluids at much less $. Install cooling ducts to the front rotors if you can but it's not necessary for your "race".

If you haven't been around that track with a really good driver to teach you the line then sign up with N.A.S.A. or another group for the HPDE events and then practice that line. Seat time in your car is going to be important because you're going to run against an experienced guy that knows the line and is familiar with his cars limits already.
GOOD LUCK!!!

[deuce_454]

first of all, the 472 should be a screamer if its done right... (427 crank in a 502) what are the specs on that engine??? (heads, cam, CR. intake, etc?)

and you need to do the build with the sole pupose of handling, once you get into billet this, and pretty that.. your budget is gone.. if you havent bought the t-56 yet then it is worth mentioning that a tko transmission, or even a super t-10 will get the same job done for less money.. id get the OD though if you intend on driving it on the street,

while i agree on the subframe, especially if you can get some sponsor... but you could also give marcus a call at SC&C (look in the left vendor coloum), he is very well versed on suspension tuning and not only the "replace everything"-kind... you will definately need solid frame mounts and a subframe connector... and i am prety sure you will need to do somthing semi-drastic about the rear suspension..

other than that... start removing weight... EVERYWHRE.. get a scale and start going nuts.. there is alot of weighy to be removed in the interior, and every pound lost is time gained arrount the track..

ebay and racingjunk can save you alot of money and used racing seats, seatbelts, brake calipers, steering wheels gauges and so on, are every bit as functional as new ones... just cheaper... leaving more money to get the important parts (pm me your address with regards to the headers btw)

also find out what you need in the way of rollcage to run on your track

by the way if for some reason you are you willing to add fender flares? if you are then my suggestion on the wheels would be a set of used 16 inch T/A race wheels, 12 and 13 x 16, the slicks for them are prety cheap, and T/A Front Tire Size 325/35R16 and T/A Rear Tire Size 335/45R16 should give you the grip to run circles arround a bmw
http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?fo...action=product

[DDY RCKT]

Thanks for the suggestions, guys! Much more info to research, which I really appreciate!!!

I already have the T56. It was a trade up for parts I had for my Corvette, that I don't need anymore. Basically, I've got the 472, the car, and the T56 and I'm only $400 into the budget so far. I'm working on a website to get everything in one place, so when that's done I'll let everyone know!!

I'll have to work with my friend on the rules regarding what I can and cannot run (fiber bumper, etc.) just to see what's "allowable" in the comparison of street car to street car. Thanks so much for the help, now I have more questions to ask.

Thankfully, I've got a lot more track time than my opponent. Unfortunately, the main component of my track time has been in my MINI, which is a slightly different ballgame. But I've been on this track a bunch with NASA events and riding with other friends who do it regularly.

So now I'm off to research everything you've just told me! I'll come back with more questions soon, I'm sure!

[MarkM66]

What track will you be racing at?

[DDY RCKT]

Originally Posted by MarkM66

What track will you be racing at?

Virginia International Raceway, VIR.

[ArisESQ]

Originally Posted by DDY RCKT

I'll have to work with my friend on the rules regarding what I can and cannot run (fiber bumper, etc.) just to see what's "allowable" in the comparison of street car to street car. Thanks so much for the help, now I have more questions to ask.

maybe you should just leave out mentioning fiberglass bumper and that type of stuff when you talk to your friend... just ask him if you can run slicks...

[deuce_454]

its like talking to a cop or a woman... dont say anything! dont ask anything untill you find out what you are being acused for... dont ask him what you can run... just agree on road legal tires.. and show up on DOT slicks...

and what ever you do... dont tell him any specifics about the build, that way he is liable to start buying and installing BMW track suspension goodies...

[DDY RCKT]

I think the front is going to get treated to a rebuild on the stock subframe. A lot of people are getting good performance out of that, it seems. Now I just need to figure out who all has front kits available, and where it fits in the budget.

The rear, hoever, is a different story. Here's what I'm thinking, tell me what you think about it.

Go with a kit like the Hotchkis TVS kit, and reinforce that with a Fay's 2 Watts Link. I have to see if the Watts link will work with lowering leaf springs. I don't see why not, but it's good to check on that sort of thing.

This is about the same price, give or take, as the Martz 4-link rear. I'm not sure what's the better bang for the buck. I like the looks of the Martz rear 4-link, but I see more people complaining than praising Martz, and that makes me wary.