$2500 budget for '68 Camaro suspension...could use some advice

[spctomlin]

I realize I'm hardly the first person to ask this sort of question and the search tool would eventually produce all my answers but I've spent the last three weeks wading through threads and manufacturer websites and still haven't been able to make a decision. Pozzi's website and threads from many of you here and on Pro-Touring have been very helpful but much of that info is now several years old or what works for one didn't work out so well for another and there just seems to be so many different ways to skin the cat. I'm always concerned I'm missing that one critical piece of information that'll come back to haunt me after I've made all my decisions. I know a good number of you have been paying close attention to and applying this stuff for years now so I felt it would be in my best interest to pick the brains of those who have had their finger on the pulse, so to speak. I'm running short on time and need to come up with something soon (my mechanic is fixing to have to move on to another commitment) so any help you guys could offer would be seriously appreciated.

I restored the car myself back in the late 90's and at that time installed a 450 HP small block and Tremec TKO 5-speed, PST front end rebuild kit, Eibach 1' drop springs (500lb), Vette Brakes 5-leaf mono-spring replacement springs (175lb), KYB Gas-a-just shocks, 1" lowering blocks, South Side Machine lift bars, four wheel disc brake conversion that uses factory front discs and calipers and 11" Lincoln rotors at the rear with 80's GM A-body calipers, a booster/master cylinder from a 2nd gen T/A and Wilwood proportioning valve, Chassis Engineering weld-in subframe connectors, poly bushings everywhere (including body mount) and the car already had a Saginaw quick ratio box and big solid front sway bar (1 1/8" I'm pretty sure) when I got it. It rides on 16" Amer. Racing Torque Thrust D's with 7" up front and 8.5" in the rear shod with Dunlop Z-rated 225/55 and 255/50, but I'll want to update those eventually, too. My suspension budget does not include tires.

I did some tracking with the car back in '05 (NASA HPDE 1-4) and then went through some life changes that caused me to have to mothball the car. I recently swapped out the motor to a 383 (around 550 HP/aluminum heads) and, because I no longer have time to work on it (small business owner, single dad of two) have hired someone to get it running again. While he has it I'd like to do something better with the suspension than what I threw together some ten years ago (don't really want traction devices...but don't want wheel hop issues, either). It will mostly see street duty with an occasional trip to the area race tracks for HPDE or DE events and I'm done with the drag racing thing, so getting a killer 60' time is not anywhere close to a priority. I don't need the ride of a CTS-V (it can only get better than what I had with the lift bars, I suspect), I don't care about gee-whiz looking parts and absolutely will never be showing this car. I simply want to extract the maximum amount of performance possible from it for my stated budget (which could be stretched a bit if it meant significant gains). I'm ok with having to cut on the car a little so something like the G-mod is perfectly alright...especially if it means more performance for less money. I'd rather spend money on better tires than tubular control arms if that means better performance at the end of the day and I'm fine with leaf springs in the back but am not averse to a bolt-in 4-link if I can pull that off with a good shock set up and still have money to address the front suspension. Brake upgrades will need to be considered and it appears the 3rd gen Camaro brake conversions are a popular budget friendly mod....but I won't consider that part of the suspension budget and will address it down the road (it brakes pretty good as is).

So consider this a chance to spend someone else's money the way you would if you could do it all over again. I mean, everyone loves doing that, right?

Thanks,
Michael

[Z06vette]

Is the $2500 for parts only or does that include labor? I would say for your goal of maximum performance it would seem like the rear 4 link & coil overs all the way around is where you will want to end up. It would be over budget to do front & rear. I have read in numerous suspension threads that the front is of more importance than the rear when it comes to the handling dept. So I guess you would want to concentrate your focus there. It would seem best to do this than try to do both with the given budget- Only later to end up removing parts that were a compromise to get where you ultimately want to be from a performance level. On the other hand, if you feel a leaf spring setup would satisfy your needs, this would allow front & rear to be taken care of. A quality set of front & rear springs (DSE, hotchkis/global west,etc) and a nice set of adjustable shocks would give you a very nice setup. It would be a step up from your current parts and you could keep the factory control arms and possibly do the G-mod. I am by no means a suspension guru, I just enjoy building/driving first gen f bodies. I'm sure others will add some very good advise. Glad you are getting the car back up & running.
Scott

[spctomlin]

Thanks for the reply, Scott.

Originally Posted by Z06vette

Is the $2500 for parts only or does that include labor?

$2500 is for parts only.

Originally Posted by Z06vette

I would say for your goal of maximum performance it would seem like the rear 4 link & coil overs all the way around is where you will want to end up. It would be over budget to do front & rear. I have read in numerous suspension threads that the front is of more importance than the rear when it comes to the handling dept. So I guess you would want to concentrate your focus there.

I too have been getting the impression that the unfavorable geometry of the factory front end is much more of a handicap to the handling performance of the first gen F-bodies than what's going on in the rear...so I want to make sure I'm not cutting any corners there and am addressing the proper issues rather than just bolting on the sexiest parts (i.e. tubular LCA). And as much as I'd like to put a four-link on the car I can't help but think it may be overkill for my needs. I mean, it's no secret a leaf spring car can be made to handle very well and I suspect can still be competitive in the right hands. But I don't even need to be competitive. I'd like to be fast, but I don't have to be the fastest guy out there. Since I'm just going to be open tracking the car I'd like to be able to push it and enjoy it more than is possible on the street and be safe doing it. I'm more interested in being under control and having a car that feels predictable than having something that just looks cool and has big money add-ons.

Originally Posted by Z06vette

It would seem best to do this than try to do both with the given budget- Only later to end up removing parts that were a compromise to get where you ultimately want to be from a performance level. On the other hand, if you feel a leaf spring setup would satisfy your needs, this would allow front & rear to be taken care of. A quality set of front & rear springs (DSE, hotchkis/global west,etc) and a nice set of adjustable shocks would give you a very nice setup. It would be a step up from your current parts and you could keep the factory control arms and possibly do the G-mod. I am by no means a suspension guru, I just enjoy building/driving first gen f bodies. I'm sure others will add some very good advise. Glad you are getting the car back up & running.
Scott

For sure. I have to be realistic about what I want to do with the car in spite of how much I'd like to outfit it with the latest trick parts. Fact of the matter is I also have a '79 Mercury Capri that was at one time a SCCA A-Sedan car that I've rebuilt and almost completely converted over to an updated (well, updated by '05 standards) NASA CMC car. That will be a dedicated, purpose built for competition race car with a tunable suspension and all the proper race car goodies. So I don't need or want to go to extremes with the Camaro....just get the most bang for my buck from it.

And I feel like I've hit a brick wall with picking the parts. No particular brand seems to be the obvious best choice...all of them have good and bad said about them but I get the impression any of them would likely give me a car that can perform beyond my skill level as a driver. I'm not so sure I need some of the "kits" like the Hotchkis TVS since it includes a bunch of steering linkage parts I've recently replaced and also I find myself wondering "well, brand x kit has an attractive price but several are saying the shocks from brand y kit are better"...and even with that the discussion I'm getting that info from might be three or four years old which makes it kind of hard to feel confident I'm making the right decision.

[Track Junky]

If all you have is $2500 my advice is to not be in a hurry and wait for used parts to come up on this site. Stick to the bolt on stuff you can do yourself. You probably haven't seen my build thread but I have done nothing more than get a 1/2" taller upper ball joint with Global West control arms and a DSE sway bar up front. Still using stock subframe. I run NASA and NCRC Time Trials and do pretty decent. If you don't want to cut into your fender wells you can get a 255 up front on an 8" rim but I recommend a 275 with a 9.5" wheel with back space of 5.5". Same size wheel and back spacing for the rear. Get a Fays II watts link for the rear. This unit not only centers the differential but also allows you to adjust rear roll center. Then go to The Toyo RA-1 tires.
After that put in as much wheel time as you can. Buy a tire temp probe to dial in your alignment. Look into the Porterfield R4 brake pads before touching your brake system. You wont be disappointed.
Good luck moving forward

[spctomlin]

^^^

Alright...three pages into your build thread and there is no doubt you qualify as hard core in my book. I'm not sure I want to take my car that far...but getting on track has a funny way of making you do things you said you wouldn't do beforehand, so who know where my comfort zone will be (how much budget will get stretched) once I hit the track.. Still, I see lots of good ideas I can work with so I'll keep looking over your thread. Which GW leafs did you go with...cat5?

[Sieg]

I'd consider DSE's bushings for the stock control arms, 1/2" tall ball joints and tie rod ends, Moog offset shafts, spherical bushings in the rear leafs if your spring rate/roll rate is acceptable, if not Global West drop springs, and the best RideTech shocks you can buy with the remainder. Nothing flashy or radical but noticeable improvements.

From a safety factor perspective you're way under braked up front considering the motor.............IMO. Not many things will hurt you quicker than inadequate grip and brakes.

[Track Junky]

Hold off on the rear leafs. Yours may work fine. And no, not using the cat 5 spherical bushings in my leafs. Just poly's. The Cat 5 spherical bushings are better for auto x applications allowing the rear to roll and rotate around slower speed tight turns. They also keep the leafs from binding but that's no big deal. Binding leafs will just act like a higher spring rate.
Try and take as much weight out of the car as possible. I would also go to the 1/2" drop solid body mount bushings.
I went to Hoosier slicks so if you do decide to go to the Toyo's I have two pairs of used ones and one pair of new ones in 275/40 17. Whats nice about the Toyos is when they have been warn down to slicks they are the fastest.

[spctomlin]

Originally Posted by Sieg

I'd consider DSE's bushings for the stock control arms, 1/2" tall ball joints and tie rod ends, Moog offset shafts, spherical bushings in the rear leafs if your spring rate/roll rate is acceptable, if not Global West drop springs, and the best RideTech shocks you can buy with the remainder. Nothing flashy or radical but noticeable improvements.

From a safety factor perspective you're way under braked up front considering the motor.............IMO. Not many things will hurt you quicker than inadequate grip and brakes.

Noted on the brakes....will be giving them the necessary attention in short order.

Alright, so these suggestions give me something to chew on but leave me with a few questions. I see no mention of the G-mod. Do the offset shafts and tall ball joints accomplish the same thing? And I kind of figured the rear leafs I have now would have to be replaced since I'm removing the lift/traction bars and these springs have no provision to control wheel hop....or is that not as big of a concern as I'm making it out to be?

[spctomlin]

Originally Posted by Track Junky

Hold off on the rear leafs. Yours may work fine. And no, not using the cat 5 spherical bushings in my leafs. Just poly's. The Cat 5 spherical bushings are better for auto x applications allowing the rear to roll and rotate around slower speed tight turns. They also keep the leafs from binding but that's no big deal. Binding leafs will just act like a higher spring rate.
Try and take as much weight out of the car as possible. I would also go to the 1/2" drop solid body mount bushings.
I went to Hoosier slicks so if you do decide to go to the Toyo's I have two pairs of used ones and one pair of new ones in 275/40 17. Whats nice about the Toyos is when they have been warn down to slicks they are the fastest.

If I move up to 17" wheels any time soon I'll give them consideration. Might be something to think about for the Fox body if I decide to time trial it before I start wheel to wheel racing. Hell, the class might even allow 17" wheels now...been a while since I've looked at the rules.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

The things that I can see is geometry improvents up front.
Your leafs are fine.

I'd be going after better shocks, fixing the bump steer issue and replace the graphite bushings up front. Tall ball joint or tall spindle will give you ther camber gain. I would look at a spindle cause it will fix two issues.

For your budget you can do a set of Koni reds, Ridetech Tru turn or ATS AFX spindle.

The only issues is you'll have to upgrade your front brakes with the ATS AFX or you may need new headers with the Ride tech Tru turn.

Everything else you listed can do for now.