Fast EZ EFI HELP please!

[supremeefi]

Originally Posted by PTAddict

We've installed two systems using EZ-EFI, one on an Inglese individual runner setup on a ZZ4 crate motor, the other a TBI setup on the owner's ZZ502 crate motor. We never got either to run satisfactorily from our point of view, the Inglese barely acceptable, the ZZ502 virtually undriveable with a flat spot the size of the Grand Canyon. No amount of consultation with FAST seemed to help.

I think both of these could be considered more "edge cases", which may account for why other folks seem to be quite happy with EZ-EFI. Still, at this point I don't trust any of these systems that are "self tune only", with no laptop or other manual override programming available.

X2, thank you.

[Revved]

Originally Posted by PTAddict

We've installed two systems using EZ-EFI, one on an Inglese individual runner setup on a ZZ4 crate motor, the other a TBI setup on the owner's ZZ502 crate motor. We never got either to run satisfactorily from our point of view, the Inglese barely acceptable, the ZZ502 virtually undriveable with a flat spot the size of the Grand Canyon. No amount of consultation with FAST seemed to help.

I think both of these could be considered more "edge cases", which may account for why other folks seem to be quite happy with EZ-EFI. Still, at this point I don't trust any of these systems that are "self tune only", with no laptop or other manual override programming available.

I've had that conversation with David Page and Kevin Winstead even though they both agreed that there should be a "Tuner Backdoor" for guys that know what they are doing the Management at FAST has determined that they want the system sealed. I've done 3 EZ EFI systems- one on a common plenum manifold and two on direct runner manifolds. The common plenum engine was a caddy 500ci big block, it tuned out just fine and is a great driver. The other two with direct runner intakes were stroker small block Windsors and they were finicky.

The first one I did was soon after EZ EFI came out and actually cost me future business with the client. The system would develop a flat spot on moderate accel like briskly getting on the highway. FAST didn't have any ideas of what could cause it- I would clear out the program and it would go away for a while then tune itself back in. The client didn't want to wait for me to figure out what was wrong so I shipped him the car and of course it became a big issue.

The second one just develops random stumbles. The owner has just accepted it as part of driving a "race car" on the street but short of replacing the system I don't have any other options.

I've gone back to putting sequential XFI systems on everything. Direct runner intakes are tricky to properly tune unless you have experience with them. I have not yet seen a self-tuning system is smart enough to work out the necessary compromises that make it driveable in the real world.

Mark and I had a conversation about this a couple years back... It is easy for him to bash the FAST systems because he has seen a lot of badly installed and tuned systems... I've seen the same but I've also seen what they can do when they are set up properly. My tank is always half full but I don't think I'll be trying any of the EZ 2.0 systems.

[tazzz2_ca]

I believe we placed a fast EZ system on a Pontiac 455 60 over with Edelbrock heads and a pretty aggressive cam a few years ago (since sold the car)....

The motor/system wanted to stall after aggressive driving and my mechanic was going nuts trying to figure out the problem... In the end he was reading over the manual for the system at lunch one day for the 100th time and went to the chapters in the manual for tuning over 500ci and the specific setting/s in the in the initial setup... He thought well I've tried everything else he could,,, so he just tried tuning for over 500ci in the initial parameters and the motor ran great after that....

BTW I don't know what it is about Pontiac's and fuel injection (as all motors are just air pumps in the end) but every one that I have used fuel injection on has been a major pain in the a$$.... I recently sold/took a 20,000 hit (after the sale price) on a CV-1 headed motor because after two years I was just that pissed off... All the players involved spent more time trying to point to the other and none offered a real solution while the labor bills just kept rolling in to try and make this thing work (never consistently did in two years)...

I had little flashes of the whole thing coming together every once and a while... When it did,, the dam thing just about ripped the tires off the a$$ end of the car and exploded into action... That was constantly followed up by placing my foot into it a mile down the road and the engine laying down.... Personally I'm of the opinion that it'll be a dark day in July before I ever try to run a Pontiac motor in one of my Pro-touring cars again as this last one left me with such a taste in my mouth that I will not soon forget it..... Not the very least to mention the math of a motor built for $25,000 couldn't draw 8,000 in a natural sale and was a challenge to finally sell for 5,000. Pontiac drive lines and Pro-touring = huge hit both in maintenance (as they don't like continuous high RPM) and financial pocket book.....

[usa-69z]

I have a 'self tune' ezi efi fast system on my 383 , heavy solid camshaft etc,, i am running 52mm throttle bodys on a cross ram 8 stack manifold. I have had no problems what so ever with this system.. It runs , starts easy and revs beautifully .. i think i got lucky as ive heard the horror stories.

[supremeefi]

Yes they are finicky. And their fuel curves are unlike anything else.
On the batch fire EZ stuff if you throw enough fuel at it they'll run ok however you're leaving a bunch on the table.

I've done over a half dozen and they're not easy but with the right system you can make them run real well in just a few hours.

The main problem is most systems lack the appropriate transient fueling tables so you have to run them fatter than you normally would. With the difference in uncovered area at different throttle positions it takes multiple tables to get it right. Most systems don't have that, even the XFI 2.0.

When you have the right equipment they work fine. I even nailed the tuning on a couple via email.

[Judgement]

I'm still having all sorts of issues with this system, my pressure is right on the manifold is a rpm that is port matched and polished to Kauffman aluminum heads. It's back in the shop again, I'll try setting it up to over 500 cubic inches. I'm at my whits end if this system doesn't work the way it should I'll pull it and put a carb on it. Pissing me off!!!

[supremeefi]

Originally Posted by Judgement

I'm still having all sorts of issues with this system, my pressure is right on the manifold is a rpm that is port matched and polished to Kauffman aluminum heads. It's back in the shop again, I'll try setting it up to over 500 cubic inches. I'm at my whits end if this system doesn't work the way it should I'll pull it and put a carb on it. Pissing me off!!!

Why don't you just buy an EFI system that works? That way you can use the rest of the hardware you already have.
Then you can sell the crap you have now.

[GregWeld]

I personally own TWO IR 8 stacks both running EZ EFI -- and have installed or worked on helping to set up at least half a dozen others - everything from Brodix headed BBC to SBF's... and every one of them has run flawlessly.

Remember that the EZ EFI ONLY CONTROLS THE FUELING.... nothing else. So while everyone is quick to blame the EFI because it's "new" or it's "self tune" or whatever excuse they can come up with.... every time I've chased someone else's issue -- it's been ANYTHING BUT the EFI.

It's usually some shortcut the installer has taken. Tapping the MAP off the wrong place or a shared source.... or the MSD distributor is installed as it came out of the box (with garage door springs and the wrong stop bushings) so the curve is all wrong.... or the 'Connect straight to the battery' has been ignored. Or the Tach input is wrong and it needs the signal conditioner that is optional... Or some wise guy decides that some sensor isn't really needed... or that he knows more about these systems than the engineers and has the O2 sensor too far back in the exhaust system.... OR the best yet is that there is a simple air leak around the welded in bung causing all manor of erroneous readings.


I think the key to ALL EFI is to stop thinking what you KNOW (or think you know) and start with a fresh attitude to learning about the system you're installing and think about WHY they instruct you to do certain things. Electrical system health and voltage are critical to these systems. That means really good electrical to all the various sensors. Some idiots put thread tape around the fittings making the grounds bad... Trust me -- it's all the little things you USED TO DO that bite you in the ass when you're working on EFI.

[ccracin]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

I personally own TWO IR 8 stacks both running EZ EFI -- and have installed or worked on helping to set up at least half a dozen others - everything from Brodix headed BBC to SBF's... and every one of them has run flawlessly.

Remember that the EZ EFI ONLY CONTROLS THE FUELING.... nothing else. So while everyone is quick to blame the EFI because it's "new" or it's "self tune" or whatever excuse they can come up with.... every time I've chased someone else's issue -- it's been ANYTHING BUT the EFI.

It's usually some shortcut the installer has taken. Tapping the MAP off the wrong place or a shared source.... or the MSD distributor is installed as it came out of the box (with garage door springs and the wrong stop bushings) so the curve is all wrong.... or the 'Connect straight to the battery' has been ignored. Or the Tach input is wrong and it needs the signal conditioner that is optional... Or some wise guy decides that some sensor isn't really needed... or that he knows more about these systems than the engineers and has the O2 sensor too far back in the exhaust system.... OR the best yet is that there is a simple air leak around the welded in bung causing all manor of erroneous readings.


I think the key to ALL EFI is to stop thinking what you KNOW (or think you know) and start with a fresh attitude to learning about the system you're installing and think about WHY they instruct you to do certain things. Electrical system health and voltage are critical to these systems. That means really good electrical to all the various sensors. Some idiots put thread tape around the fittings making the grounds bad... Trust me -- it's all the little things you USED TO DO that bite you in the ass when you're working on EFI.

Excellent Info Greg!

[PTAddict]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

I think the key to ALL EFI is to stop thinking what you KNOW (or think you know) and start with a fresh attitude to learning about the system you're installing and think about WHY they instruct you to do certain things. Electrical system health and voltage are critical to these systems. That means really good electrical to all the various sensors. Some idiots put thread tape around the fittings making the grounds bad... Trust me -- it's all the little things you USED TO DO that bite you in the ass when you're working on EFI.

All true, and very good advice. But if you're suggesting that the only reason these systems sometimes fail to work well is lack of attention to detail in the install - well, as described above, I have painful personal experience to the contrary. The cynical part of me wonders why there would be a need for a new, improved XFI 2.0 at all if "1.0" always worked so fabulously.

It seems Mark has figured out more than I did about how to fool these systems into doing the right thing, and kudos for that. But I wonder what the point is, when for just a little more money you can get a system like the Holley HP which has very good self-tuning capability for the fuel curve, but still allows for easy tweaking of transient fueling, idle, throttle follower, and spark advance if required - all those things that can make the difference between an engine that runs and one that runs really well. Yes, you have to have a computer to load the initial tune - but how many folks on this forum are really that afraid of computers?