Shops, Shops and more shops

[NOT A TA]

Originally Posted by sevillaz28

I just finished a garage addition for a guy that is tired of paying people in my area for work on his car.

Are the prices for auto repair and alterations so dam high out here people are wanting to spend the money and set them selfs up for their own repair work?

How is it for you guys in the central and East states? What good car builders really exist and where are they?

I'm in Southeast FL and a lot of people build home shops here. I work on peoples builds at their home shops, my home shop, and at a 4 bay garage area at an automotive machine shop. There are some good regular shops in the area and a LOT of bad shops. Most of my customers feel they have been screwed over by at least one regular shop and/or want to keep the cost of building/restoring down by doing some of the work themselves. Some just want to have complete control over their build, don't want anyone to see the car before it's finished, or want to tell people they did all the work (doesn't bother me). I work for several people who have built home shop areas with various levels of equipment from nothing more than the most minimal of hand tools to fairly well equipped shops where I rarely need to bring anything to the job.

I charge less than shop hourly rates when working at peoples homes unless it's a very short job (less than a full day) where travel time etc. becomes important.

I usually have a couple long term full builds I'm working on at peoples home shops and then fill my schedule with shorter jobs. The owners like that the car is at their home so they're not worried about anything happening to it and they can spend money at a pace they are comfortable with rather than feeling compelled to spend more than they would like to at a particular time. If they don't feel like spending money on or working on the car for a month or two and going away on vacation it isn't a problem. They don't feel obliged to continue having work done to the car because it's at a shop taking up space. I just work somewhere else till they want me back.

It works out well for the car owner who can do whatever work they want whenever they want because the car is at their home shop and also have someone else working with them or doing the rest of the work they don't want to do themselves. Having someone else working can really speed up their build.

Works for me because I can be working on lots of cars without storing and being responsible for them while waiting for parts or funds. I get paid when work is done. When a job takes a lot more time than normal due to problems the customer sees that because they're often there to see the problem so I get paid for my time. In a regular shop environment the shop ends up eating the extra time for some jobs because they don't want to try to justify it to the customer fearing the customer will think they're being ripped off.

I'm currently working on full builds of a Factory Five GTM and a 69 Camaro vert PT build at home shops. With a build like the Camaro I'll take something like the subframe away and strip it, get all the mods done for say a DSE stage 3 setup, paint it, and then bring it back to the customers home shop to reinstall. Meanwhile the owner can be working on something else.

I took a pic at a customers home the other day while on lunch break during a complete rewire of a 67 El Camino. There's a 12 car garage/shop in back of the El Camino filled with Tri 5's and late 60's Chevys. This customer prefers to have me just work at his home shop and refuses to leave a car at a regular shop overnight, even if it's me working on it. If I need a lift he'll trailer the car to the shop so I can work on it but will not leave it overnight.

[sevillaz28]

Originally Posted by SLO_Z28

I was just talking about building a shop today, is that price with the foundation already laid, or including the foundation? I was talking to my friend(hes a framer in the 9109), and he thought we could get it done for around $22,000. We were looking at a 24x40 with 10 foot walls. This is for a friend of mine, we built his house pretty inexpensively and this seems like the next logical step.

The cost I'm giving is for a new building from the dirt to the finish roof. You are right on the $22,000 for framing if that includes material and labor to erect the building on an existing slab and then you have the cost of the exterior finish and roof finish. I'm putting these up in about 35 to 45 working days from start to finish and the only thing I sub contract out is the concrete finish and stucco.

I helped with a GTM build and those cars can be a lot of fun. My friend had a twin turbo LS7 in his and it was just stupid fast, kind of like the Supercharged GT 500 fastback I built him that would spin the 315's at 70mph, fun but then not at the same time.

A friend of mine who builds some high quality cars is in the process of purchasing a big lot and wants me to build two 10ksqft buildings in the near future. I'm designing the buildings so he can have a full work/body shop in one building and the other building will be a finish building with a down draft spray booth, frame jig and finish staging area and a detail area. Its really a cool set up we just need to work out the cost and keep it in budget.

Building a house/car or doing a remodel for someone is a lot of fun for me especially if I'm able to give suggestions to the owner to make sure they get what they want and not just what they can afford. I listen to my clients and to what they are looking for as an end product and work off of that to give them the final product they expect.

[214Chevy]

Guys, I can't tell you how many shops I've been to just to look around. I go in to see what is going on and the owner has no idea of course that I'm into classics. He then begins to talk about all this jibberish about what they do. Of course he says, "Oh yeah, we can do anything you want." All the while I'm looking around the shops and don't see any major tools/machines/equipment which means he's lying thru his two front teeth. I love it when I ask to see a finished/painted project and he shows me the bondo'd up, wavy paint job car. I admit I was once green in the hobby and got taken for $3000. So, I can understand how it happens. I went to a shop that was supposedly respectable and had been in business for years. But, the guy was running his shop out of his front pocket. I kept giving him money as he said he would start on my car "next" and next never came. The ironic part is, the shop where my car is now, I went there first and initially thought he was too high because I didn't know what this hobby cost and how much work entailed restoring a car 40 years old. I drove it for about two years and was never really satisfied with the work done on the car. I suddenly realized that I had to do the car the right way and give the car its proper respect and due justice or nothing at all. Now it's at the current shop redoing everything the other a$$hole did wrong. But, just as Greg Weld said...for every one shop doing it right there are 20 others doing it wrong. The sad part about it all is they know they are doing it wrong, but will continue to charge you the "right way of doing things" prices. One last quick story and I really feel sorry for this guy because he has a 72 Chevelle just like me. He brought it in to the shop where my Chevelle is wanting just some very minor work. After a few days, the shop owner starts working on the car, he finds so much rust it is ridiculous. He calls the car owner back and tells him what he found and the car owner is in disbelief and thought the shop owner was lying. The shop owner stops the work and leaves the car the way it is for about a week until the car owner can get back by the shop to see all the rust that was supposedly taken out and removed. Needless to say the car owner was pissed to the highest degree. The car owner says he just had it painted and "supposedly" the other shop had removed all of the rust. To make a long story short, the car is being done right this time at the current shop, but only after replacing about $5000 worth of metal and body work. But, here's the sad part, he paid the deadbeat shop $6500 for the crap paint job and fake rust removal.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Originally Posted by John510

This is so true! I have experienced this with my shop. Each car that is there forever has a story.

very true but is it an accurate story...I believe yours had a story too but it wasn't your fault.

Even home builders need outside shops. Shops come and go, its just the way it is.

[sevillaz28]

Im going to put up some pics of a couple of shop additions Im doing and a garage conversion Im starting in a couple of weeks

[shaun8541]

Originally Posted by John510

This is so true! I have experienced this with my shop. Each car that is there forever has a story.

You and Greg both explain a big part of the problem, and I know exactly what shop you are talking about.

When I walk in some of these shops I can't believe how disorganized and messy they are, with projects sitting covered in dust, parts and tools strewn all over the place. It is unreal.

A lot of these shops have true talent working in them and if they just cleaned up there act a bit, I am sure they would have so much work they would have to turn some away.

It really isn't rocket science, a shop is a regular business and needs to be handled like one. Customers want fair and honest service, and to be kept in the loop on what is going on and what their money is going towards.

I can't tell you how many times I have had to ask shops for an invoice on where we stand, or just trying to get an honest timeline for project completion, etc. It is crazy. We wonder why our country is hurting right now, everyone is too lazy to do some of the hard work it requires to be successful.

[gearheads78]

While we are on the subject if you have a shop built really do you homework there too. I never planned on opening a big shop and live off it but I was always having friends and hot rod buddies want me to do this or that for them. I built my old 66 Cutlass in a 24 x 36 wood shop that was behind my house when I bought it. When you add up tools lawn equipment, parts and junk building a frame off car it was just not enough space.

I sold my 66 and added savings to build 42 x 50 metal building. The plan was more space for my future builds and fab equipment and do some side work to make a little $$ toward projects. Long story short I got bent over with no lube. I interviewed several builders and did not get a warm and fuzzy about any but one but all he was is a piece of crap smooth talker. The concrete started cracking everywhere a short time after it was built. The first rain poured water inside one side. He came out to fit that and the next rain there was a lake in the other side. From the amount of fasteners used to the structure of the building there are problems. After a few trips back out to "FIX" stuff that he never did he disappeared. To this day I don't even have a final invoice. I was at work and told my wife "DO NOT GIVE HIM THIS FINAL PAYMENT UNTIL YOU GET THE INVOICE!!" Some how he talked her out of it saying he would be right back with it and of course never did.

I have had a lot happen in the last few years so I have need not had the chance to even deal with fixing the building water fall walls so I can even wire the damn thing. Its basically a 42 x 50 storage garage right now. I wired lights and one (dry) wall so I can get a little done but its nothing like what it should be yet.

[John510]

Originally Posted by gearheads78

While we are on the subject if you have a shop built really do you homework there too. I never planned on opening a big shop and live off it but I was always having friends and hot rod buddies want me to do this or that for them. I built my old 66 Cutlass in a 24 x 36 wood shop that was behind my house when I bought it. When you add up tools lawn equipment, parts and junk building a frame off car it was just not enough space.

I sold my 66 and added savings to build 42 x 50 metal building. The plan was more space for my future builds and fab equipment and do some side work to make a little $$ toward projects. Long story short I got bent over with no lube. I interviewed several builders and did not get a warm and fuzzy about any but one but all he was is a piece of crap smooth talker. The concrete started cracking everywhere a short time after it was built. The first rain poured water inside one side. He came out to fit that and the next rain there was a lake in the other side. From the amount of fasteners used to the structure of the building there are problems. After a few trips back out to "FIX" stuff that he never did he disappeared. To this day I don't even have a final invoice. I was at work and told my wife "DO NOT GIVE HIM THIS FINAL PAYMENT UNTIL YOU GET THE INVOICE!!" Some how he talked her out of it saying he would be right back with it and of course never did.

I have had a lot happen in the last few years so I have need not had the chance to even deal with fixing the building water fall walls so I can even wire the damn thing. Its basically a 42 x 50 storage garage right now. I wired lights and one (dry) wall so I can get a little done but its nothing like what it should be yet.

File a complaint with the CSLB and get the money back.

[Revved]

Originally Posted by John510

File a complaint with the CSLB and get the money back.

Im in DFW as well and have dealt with crappy contractors... problem down here is that everybody and their brother is a contractor, or a builder and they hang a shingle one week...crank out a bunch of work, collect a bunch of checks, then close up and dissapear before the lawsuits start coming in. I don't know if the requirements to become a GC are just so lax or there are no regulations but you hear this same story over and over.

Only way to protect yourself is to do the research into the company before you hire them. Go see other work they've done. Go talk to previous clients. Just like having a car built... see the work before you start writing checks.

Originally Posted by shaun8541

You and Greg both explain a big part of the problem, and I know exactly what shop you are talking about.

When I walk in some of these shops I can't believe how disorganized and messy they are, with projects sitting covered in dust, parts and tools strewn all over the place. It is unreal.

A lot of these shops have true talent working in them and if they just cleaned up there act a bit, I am sure they would have so much work they would have to turn some away.

It really isn't rocket science, a shop is a regular business and needs to be handled like one. Customers want fair and honest service, and to be kept in the loop on what is going on and what their money is going towards.

I can't tell you how many times I have had to ask shops for an invoice on where we stand, or just trying to get an honest timeline for project completion, etc. It is crazy. We wonder why our country is hurting right now, everyone is too lazy to do some of the hard work it requires to be successful.

/\/\/\/\ Man speaks the truth and knows about issues with shops!! Best point you bring up is that a shop needs to be run like a business not a hobby shop. Too many shops have no organization, no solid book keeping, no inventory control. They can have all the talent in the world but if they cant run a business like a business it won't survive.

[GregWeld]

Having done more than a few cars in my lifetime... I will add a couple thoughts that might aid someone reading this thread.

The common thing that I've found with building cars is that it takes way more money UP FRONT than most are prepared / budgeted for. I don't care if it's a home build or a pro shop.... a guy can't start to build until he has most all of the major parts in hand.

It's just too hard and cause's too many do overs to things piecemeal. You can't lay out stuff - important stuff - without the major components on site. About all a shop can do at that point is the bodywork.

IF you can't just forge ahead - then everything becomes dated. Wheels and sizes change - the newest hot motor combo changes (LT1 to LS ring any bells?) - Suspension etc. When it's too dated -- the owner changes something - that adds costs...

People wouldn't build a new house and do it this way.... You have to have the finances in place. Cars should be done the same way... get your finances in order so that you can pay for the stuff you need and KEEP IT GOING TO COMPLETION.

IMHO if you "think" it's going to cost 50K -- you'd better have 100K set aside because of project creep.

Rudy and Pam's Camaro started with a front suspension rebuild. 16 months later it was a completely new car. That's just the way it works. Nothing wrong with that. It just "goes there". Why kid yourself up front.

I've also seen many make the mistake of picking the wrong shop for their builds -- you don't take your Camaro to a "hot rod" builder... take it where the shop is FAMILIAR with all the ins and outs of the particular car. That saves time and hassle. They're familiar with the parts sources - and how things should be routed and what problems they can EXPECT to find before they even start.

So many times I've seen "repairs" end up being a "build" -- the customer nor the shop is prepared for it. It just happens and when they're in over their heads - that's when the problems start.