Older Richmond 5-Speed in My 1969 Firebird - Lateral-g Forums

Ron Fox · #1 11-18-2009, 02:19 PM

Occasionally my builder has access to parts and cars from others who are trying to sell such items. He has found an OLDER Richmond 5-speed and says he has seen the inside of the transmission and it looks good. He mentioned that the seller has replaced a few internal parts as well as clean the entire transmission. The seller also has a Hurst Shifter to go with the Richmond also.

I guess I have several questions about this transmission.

Is this OLDER Richmond transmission just as good or equal to a NEW Richmond 5-Speed?

Is this a good deal? ($1,400 for all)

Will the transmission fit into my '69 Firebird without any modifications?

Can I use my original console?

Can I use my original Hurst stick?

How much torque can this OLDER transmission take?

Also, can this OLD Richmond be turned into an overdrive? My builder says yes with the correct rear gear, etc. (3.08 or 3.23 gear)

I am not a gear head and I trust my builder but I like to get opinions and information from others.

Thanks for the help.

**GregWeld** · #2 11-18-2009, 03:15 PM

Ron --

A couple things ---

"older" means what?

I had a Richmond 5 speed once - hated it. It shifted like a truck transmission - maybe worse. It used LONG brand shifter and the shifter was beautifully made but no matter what I did to adjust it - it shifted like a truck.

Second -- beware that some Richmond 5 speeds have a compound LOW not an overdrive 5th gear - be sure you know what you're buying.

**GregWeld** · #3 11-18-2009, 03:25 PM

Not to cast any "dispersions" on your builder - but you don't turn a transmission into an over drive by changing out the rear end gears.... The Richmond 5 speeds that I know of - had 1:1 final drive ratios... THAT is not an overdrive... an overdrive has something LESS than a 1:1 ratio -- more like .70:1 or .49:1

What he's trying to say is that you could have acceptable highway cruising RPMS by changing the rear end ratio to the 3:23 or 3:08 gears... but that is not what you'd do if you want some performance AND acceptable highway RPMs... if you want that combo -- you need to buy a REAL OVERDRIVE transmission such as a Tremec 5 or 6 speed. Also note that with the Tremecs, you can place the gear shift in different locations.

Check out Keisler Transmission for some information on this kind of stuff. Placement of shifter and gear ratios etc and how they affect cruise rpms etc.

http://www.keislerauto.com/

Ron Fox · #4 11-18-2009, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Ron --

A couple things ---

"older" means what?

I had a Richmond 5 speed once - hated it. It shifted like a truck transmission - maybe worse. It used LONG brand shifter and the shifter was beautifully made but no matter what I did to adjust it - it shifted like a truck.

Second -- beware that some Richmond 5 speeds have a compound LOW not an overdrive 5th gear - be sure you know what you're buying.

It's an older transmission meaning several years old.

Please be more specific on how your Richmond shifted. Was it a short gear from 1st to 2nd gear?

At the moment I have not done my homework on transmissions so please educate me on "compound low."

Thanks for your help.

Ron Fox · #5 11-18-2009, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Not to cast any "dispersions" on your builder - but you don't turn a transmission into an over drive by changing out the rear end gears.... The Richmond 5 speeds that I know of - had 1:1 final drive ratios... THAT is not an overdrive... an overdrive has something LESS than a 1:1 ratio -- more like .70:1 or .49:1

What he's trying to say is that you could have acceptable highway cruising RPMS by changing the rear end ratio to the 3:23 or 3:08 gears... but that is not what you'd do if you want some performance AND acceptable highway RPMs... if you want that combo -- you need to buy a REAL OVERDRIVE transmission such as a Tremec 5 or 6 speed. Also note that with the Tremecs, you can place the gear shift in different locations.

Check out Keisler Transmission for some information on this kind of stuff. Placement of shifter and gear ratios etc and how they affect cruise rpms etc.

http://www.keislerauto.com/

The early plan for the '69 Firebird is to have an engine putting out maybe around 550 to 650 hp with high Pontiac torque. If I remember correctly (and I am probably saying this wrong) my builder said with this type of hp I may not like taking off in first gear or taking off in first gear would be difficult. That it would be difficult to drive in bumper to bumper traffic. This is why he likes the Richmond 5-Speed with the high hp application.

Like I said earlier, I am no gear head so please keep the info coming.

Thanks.

**GregWeld** · #6 11-18-2009, 07:48 PM

I steered you where to go to check out the other 5 speeds on the market...
Make sure you check them out before committing.

A Richmond 5 speed (non overdrive version) has a 3:28 first gear

A Muncie 4 speed (non overdrive) has a 2:56 or 2:52 first gear.

The 1st gear in the Richmond has you shifting out of first gear in about 10 feet... sorta like an old pickup truck that had a compound low - it's very powerful but you're not going to move very far very fast.

When I said the Richmond shifts like a truck - I meant it shifts HARD -- and SLOW - and is NOTCHY... A new Corvette 6 speed (Tremec) would best be described as a "snick snick" shift - super easy - quick - positive. An old Muncie - when adjusted properly - would also be an easy to shift transmission - and with a "short throw" linkage set up - would also be "snick snick".

Ron Fox · #7 11-19-2009, 12:55 AM

Would a short 1st gear be needed in a high horsepower and somewhat of a middle to large cam car? I have never driven a car with extremely high hp so I do not know what it is like taking off in 1st gear. My builder said it would not be pleasant driving in bumper to bumper traffic (that it would be like taking off in 2nd gear in my Toyota truck like you mentioned)

Personally I do not like the short 1st gear but then again I do not want it to be difficult to take off in 1st gear in a high hp car.

**Flash68** · #8 11-19-2009, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Fox

Would a short 1st gear be needed in a high horsepower and somewhat of a middle to large cam car? I have never driven a car with extremely high hp so I do not know what it is like taking off in 1st gear. My builder said it would not be pleasant driving in bumper to bumper traffic (that it would be like taking off in 2nd gear in my Toyota truck like you mentioned)

Personally I do not like the short 1st gear but then again I do not want it to be difficult to take off in 1st gear in a high hp car.

What are the specs of this motor? Does it have some nice off-idle torque? Or is it a peaky small block?

I am guessing you do not want this tranny, and for a little more money you can get either a TKO or a T56. I have the TKO and it has a relatively short 1st gear and I would not want anything any shorter like your Richmond likely has.

And I do believe they made a Richmond OD tranny so maybe it does have an overdrive 5th or 6th gear?

**GregWeld** · #9 11-19-2009, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Fox

Would a short 1st gear be needed in a high horsepower and somewhat of a middle to large cam car? I have never driven a car with extremely high hp so I do not know what it is like taking off in 1st gear. My builder said it would not be pleasant driving in bumper to bumper traffic (that it would be like taking off in 2nd gear in my Toyota truck like you mentioned)

Personally I do not like the short 1st gear but then again I do not want it to be difficult to take off in 1st gear in a high hp car.

Your builder sounds very inexperienced. I would be questioning his judgement.

You asked for an opinion. I've given mine. I owned this transmission and it was a HUGE mistake... I hated it, for all the reasons given. I can afford to tear it out and replace it. Which is exactly what I did.

Ron Fox · #10 11-19-2009, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash68

What are the specs of this motor? Does it have some nice off-idle torque? Or is it a peaky small block?

I am guessing you do not want this tranny, and for a little more money you can get either a TKO or a T56. I have the TKO and it has a relatively short 1st gear and I would not want anything any shorter like your Richmond likely has.

And I do believe they made a Richmond OD tranny so maybe it does have an overdrive 5th or 6th gear?

At the moment my car is still waiting for metal work to be completed. The engine has not yet but the plan is for a 455 or slighty larger ci.

Richmond does make a true overdrive called the Super Street Overdrive.

I guess my MAIN CONCERN is taking off in 1st gear with high hp. I do not want the car to bog down when taking off. Please educate me on this but do all High hp cars bog down? I am just in the dark when it comes to transmissions, etc.

Do you like your TKO? Is your car a high hp car and if so does it tend to bog down taking off or difficult driving in traffic?

Thanks for your help.