calling all lateral-g artists for a chat

[city_ofthe_south]

I've been talking with ZVT who I'm sure you're all familiar with after seeing his killer renderings recently, and we were wanting to get some conversation going on with the other artists hanging out here. I know that he has a lot of questions as someone interested in making some cash with his art - me as someone who has been but struggles with some of the finer points and then others who have probably been doing this for years successfully. Rather than saying, HEY, what's the magic answer to the question that has no perfect answer, maybe we could open a conversation where we could get into what people are doing and how different situations have worked for them ...??

I know personally, I've been dealing with how willing I am to turn over all rights to a drawing and also, what you guys are providing your client as a finial rendering (prints? and of what quality or cost to you ... files? and what types etc). I know what I would LIKE to give them, but then rights always come up and I'm not great with writing contracts (books have helped). Each situation I've come across has been so unique and never REALLY what I envision as a Hot Rod artist. I dunno, I'm just throwing this out hoping to get people talking and maybe to get us better acquainted with one another. Quite obviously there are guys here (ZVT) who represent the start who have MAD skills and are serious about what they're doing and would like to get to know people with some very useful insight. Well the same goes for me, having exactly no source of advice for what I do since I started it - basically making it up as I go and having no clue that I'm making major mistakes. I'll let ZVT get in on this for his questions and whatever but I'd be very interested to hear what others are giving to clients as the finial piece of art.

[Hdesign]

I'm glad you bring this stuff up.

The legality, copyrighting, taxes, etc. are the things that I really need to become more serious about as well. Thanks to all the great people I've been able to help with their projects this year, it's looking like I will be able to go full-time sooner than I anticipated. It's simultaneously a dream come true and also incredibly intimidating as far as what I need to know and do to run a legit company rather than a moonlighting gig. What laws, licensing and documentation do I need? How can I copyright my work? I've seen my work floating around on the web that I never gave permission for or design concepts that have been thinly veiled as an "original idea" by someone else. What action can I take if I think it's necessary?

As far as deliverables, I try to keep it as informal as possible right now. I'm usually not going to make a big deal if someone wants me to send them a CD or a file to print out themselves. As long as my name stays on the work and I get credit for it I probably won't say anything. Now if someone were to mass produce the image for the sole purpose of turning a profit, yeah, I may speak up. I try to take a common sense approach to it. Could I make more money out if I were a stickler for copyrighting? Maybe. I at least reserve the right to use it in my portfolio, but I ask permission from the client.

I typically print out on my home printer 11x17. If they want a larger print, I charge them whatever it cost me to have it printed at a print shop.

[ZVT]

I'm starting out and never really charged anybody for anything I have done(more cool an oppurtunity to improve my skills).

I for one dont have any idea on how to charge for something I do.I can spend 2hrs on a rendering and sometimes up 40hrs its a passion so you never really think of it in terms of money.It would be interesting to find out about the legal side of things to give us an idea of what we are getting into.Also what others think a drawing/rendering is worth?

I found that posting lower res images keep people from using my drawings/ photoshop manipulations etc..


As far as prints I found it useful to use walmarts photo center for my larger prints.They go up to a 20x30 poster size @ a pretty reasonable price.

Zee

[Hdesign]

Pricing is very difficult because it depends on so many variables:

Customer need, medium used, level of detail, complexity of graphics, vintage of vehicle, level of mods, "design time" vs portrait, # of views, variations, revisions.

For comparison, the Product Design firm I work for charges the client $110/hr for my time on a project. There are far more Product Design services available than Custom Car designers. It's an incredibly small group of people that can do car design (not just illustration/portraits) professionally but the market is also relatively small compared to the market for consumer, industrial and medical products.

That said, I've done rough sketches and nice photoshop chops for under $200 because they're quick and easy. Fully finished (revisable or un-revisable) renderings take longer and require more skill so they cost more. I've also been at the other end of the scale where I'm deeply involved in all the decision making, color selection, wheel design, part design, meeting with vendors, traveling to clients, countless phone calls and emails. It all adds up....quickly. The best thing you can do is give them a price based on how many hours you think it'll take and make sure they understand what they are getting for their money and what additional work (revisions) will cost. Keep track of how long it takes you to get to a finished rendering. The more you do the more you will know what to charge.

[asaenz]

That guy Ben doesn't know anything don't listen to him

Ok here is good thread from my old hang out spot.
Page 2 lists some good books about art and business.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...59#post1922659

Listen to Ben, Lemorris, and Bonzilite

I can't offer to much first had experience help. I'm still new, plus I have just about decided to just keep it as a hobby mostly doing a job here and there.
I am almost sure that I'm just going to invest my energy in to my IT career.
That is just me. I'm not sure if I "love" car art enough to do it more often. I have some personal things going on that takes up my time.

Hey Ben I was joking...hee hee

[Hdesign]

No worries Al.

But seriously, I'm probably in close to the same boat you guys are in.

From early 04 to the beginning of 06 I did a bunch of freebies for friends and entered contests when I could. I probably had 3-4 real jobs in that time. I went to a couple shows and joined online forums but it really didn't start picking up until I joined Lat-g and Scott had the Artwork forum here. Word of mouth travels extremely fast around here and I am up to 93 projects in the book for 07. I've only gotten to about half of them it seems because I'm also working a full-time job and have a 2 year old and a house that needs work.

I flat out run out of day....everyday. I literally come home from work at 7PM, eat dinner with my wife, walk the dog, kiss my daughter goodnight and I'm upstairs in a spare bedroom working til 2, 3, 4 in the morning and up again at 6. On the weekends, I play with my daughter while my wife is at work, I cut the grass when she gets home and I spend most of the rest of the weekend working. My Nova hasn't been touched in over a year! I wouldn't do it if I wasn't absolutely rabid about doing this for the rest of my life. I'm paying my dues now and I love it, it's an obsession. However, it's not for everyone. If it wasn't for helping to paying the bills, my wife would disown me.

It's mostly my fault because I feel terrible if I make people wait for stuff. I'm an extremely impatient person and I suspect others are too. There's nothing I hate more than letting someone down. I have a problem saying no because I love helping people and I get just as excited about their project (even if it's "another 69 Camaro") as I do about my own car. It's like the maid who has a filthy house or the mechanic that drives a clunker.

Yet, I still haven't gotten all the boring documentation and legal BS resolved. I keep procrastinating. As I said, I really need to. And I will definitely be getting the books Al recommended because I had no idea where to begin looking for info on that stuff. I wonder if they come on CD so I can listen while I'm working. Probably won't make for good inspiration though!

[ZVT]

Originally Posted by Hdesign

my wife would disown me.
!

LOL what you just said and add a 71/2 month pregnant wife.

Everytime I look at a project car I might want to buy I get the you never gonna have time to run your business, draw and work on a car speech

I remember that post on the AF forums but back then I didnt bother as most of my stuff was done just to pass time.

[70 chevelle]

I've always wondered what the fee is for a rendering, whats averege?

[city_ofthe_south]

i'm glad to see this thread is off to a start. I've used an artist’s guild book for contracts and it also really helped me understand my rights. Even so, it's hard to then apply them with each situation being different. I understand that the law is basically on our side as the artist nearly 100%. Our work is copy written automatically and the copy right symbol can be used without any special permission ... however, I guess to get better results from a court if that should ever happen, registering our work is a good idea. It doesn't sound like it costs much either. This could be different now but I think they even have a way that allows you to video tape your work for X seconds, fit a lot of images on one tape and group register them for very little. None of the numbers are coming to me and I can't find the effin book now.

I've been getting prints from Staples on foam core and laminated ... it isn't cheap but I was really surprised by the results. It's really durable with the foam core, and the lamination won't quite stop bullets but it's good for everything else. I have a cannon home printer that'll only do 8.5X11 and it does a great job but its not professional quality or anything. So, I've got kinda expensive and kinda cheap ... i guess i'm interested in what others are doing in case there is some middle ground in there i'm missing or i might really like the sound of.

I remember a thing in PHR i think covering artists ... some of which i believe can be found around here and the prices seemed to be in the $200 - $300 range for something like a single rendering of the car. I wouldn't guess that convers anything special ... a drawing of a givin car with desired mods, in given artist's style ... the end. it's just alllll so much more complicated. it'd be real cool if it wasn't though.

[Yard Dawg]

It's great to see this discussion going on in here!

I too have been doing car renderings as a "hobby" more or less. I've been doing work as a graphic designer/illustrator for about 20 years now!

I've drawn everything from wildlife to aviation to automobiles. In all this time I have yet to develop a "price sheet" that will work for every project!
Most often it is "customized" or "negotiated" in order to fit the expectation/budget of the customer.

Ultimately, the final price is determined by you! But, just like other services, it needs to be a fair price for the skill level you can offer. Try to avoid quoting a price that is so low that you regret having to complete the project. You'll be miserable and your work may reflect that as well.

It also doesn't hurt to just simply ask the customer what price they had in mind.
You might also consider offering different options from "top of the line" to "very simple" and maybe a few options in between.

I've also done some rend'gs for speed parts as well!

I guess the main thing I'm trying to say here is to be flexible on everything but the pride in your work!

Well, it's late and I'm tired but I've been following this post and felt the need to contribute. Hopefully it'll make sense in the morning!