All great info. Blake and I were talking about some of these exact things earlier. What a great opportunity we have today to be involved in this industry when the technology and engineering advancements have gone way beyond what we were trying maybe 10-15 years ago.
Blake was also busting on me a little, he says my car won't roll any more than it does because of the crappy 300+ tread wear NT555s I have can't grip well enough to allow the car to lean that much, lol! In that video I was near the edge of going from turning to understeer on the large sweeper. I'm sure tires are a factor as well as some more suspension tuning.
The way you explained it Ron it really clicked what you're after with Lance's car. Thanks for sharing, good stuff for everyone to consider.
As far as Lance's current package goes ... without making any major modifications (cutting up) the car ... it only needs a few things:
* Bigger front bar & matching rear springs
* A little more caster & a little less camber
* Scaled to be balanced with just the driver
* New tires to replace his current shredded ones
* Once he get's it running flatter, he may be able to reduce the ride height "a little."
I guess we could call this "Stage 3" of master plan...
Bigger front sway bar is now installed along with matching rear springs, but I went a step further and also installed a new chassis mounted rear sway bar to replace the LCA mounted bar the car had on it.
Static camber has been dialed back to -1.2 degrees both sides and caster bumped up to +9.6 degrees both sides.
The ride height has been corrected to balance the car out with the driver only in the driver seat. New ride heights at the fender are 25 7/8s" front, 26 7/8s" rear. Front is about 1/4" lower, rear is about 1/2" lower than with the stage 2 setup. I haven't scaled the car yet but I'm betting from past experience it's pretty close to as good as it'll get without moving weight around.
Still working on a way to get some new tires though...
Here are some pics. Front MuscleBar installed
Rear bar installed
To say the car corners flatter is an understatement...it is unbelievable how much less the car rolls now. I did the front bar and rear springs first, then did some testing with the car. It's like a different car...what I notice the most is the outside front fender doesn't dip down on turn in anywhere near as much as it used to. The balance is neutral, the driver can make the car a bit tight or loose just by making subtle changes. It felt VERY good, should be much faster on the course.
I then put the new rear bar in starting with the end links on the middle of the three adjustment holes and test drove it. The car rolls EVEN LESS now...huge difference. That setting made the car loose halfway through the roll through zone and was a bit sketchy. It was rolling a lot less and changed the handle on the car.
Yesterday I was able to move the end links to the forward hole and drive it on the street a bit more and it's closer to neutral again. It felt more stable and enjoyable to drive spiritedly.
The next plan of attack is to schedule some parking lot shock tuning time and dial in my shock settings to match the new bars and springs. I have to leave town for a week so I won't be able to get on that until next week...but I can't wait.
We've wanted less roll out of the car for a long time and now I finally have it...I'm stoked to see how it races next time out.
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Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
Engaging Mister Ron Sutton is what I keep encouraging people to do... BUY from him -- or PAY him a fee for advice and numbers - whatever works.... The man knows his stuff!! His advice is priceless. A little of this and a little of that and your car will be so improved it's amazing.
The funny part I find with working with him - he's not about just throwing parts at the car and hoping it works out... he's got the info that goes along with the parts that is what makes the parts work with everything else you have.
Man the bottom of that car is dirty!! I remember not that long ago when I could eaten off the bottom side of the car...
I like it better this way! Shows that it's being driven, not just looked at.
Thanks guys, I never could have gotten it this far on my own and knowing that I have a guiding light showing me the way and being there for backup if I screw something up makes all the difference in the world. The new rear bar wasn't really in the plan, but the opportunity to pick it up happened and I knew that Ron would help me through making the transition with it. In the end I think it's going to work out great and be a big plus.
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Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
Probably not going to see any air under the inside rear now are you?
Funny you should mention that...
I spent time last week fine tuning the installation of the Chassis mounted sway bar and got some road testing in last Friday night. We decided to try the stiffest bar setting and my softest springs I had on hand, 162# springs. The car felt fine on the spirited road driving but all of my parking lots had cars in them so I couldn't do any simulated autocross turns. It was just a touch tight if anything on the road, so Saturday morning I swapped in my 185# springs and went back out. I found a parking lot and made quite a few runs while adjusting on the shocks. I got the car "okay" but I had a weird hopping issue on the rear that made me loose when it happened. I couldn't place exactly what was happening but remember the whole setup is new to me. What I found when I got back to the shop is the end links on the rear sway bar had pushed on the axle mounts and rotated them back far enough for the endlinks to go up top over center and jam the sway bar ends pointing up. Thinking that this was causing binding which was causing my hopping issue I proceeded to have my friend John make me some 3/4" spacers to lower the axle brackets so I could rotate them forward enough to get the end links pointing straight down and keep the bar off the diff.
Then I came in the house and reviewed the videos I took...and found the REAL PROBLEM... The inside rear tire was lifting off the ground on hard autocross type turns.
I went back out Sunday morning and tried it again wondering if the new spacers and repositioned bar would fix this issue, it didn't. I could tell right away now that I recognize the feeling when the inside tire lifts. I then put the bar on the middle setting and tried again, no help. So I tried the softest setting...a bit better maybe, but still no good. No way can I autocross the car like this. It drives FANTASTIC on the street, on and off ramps are a hoot...car is balanced, secure, and just fun to drive...until I try to make a hard simulated autocross type turn...where it lifts the inside tire, the rear hops a bit...then slides loose.
I decided to punt and pulled the bar and put my LCA mounted bar back on as I know I can race with it and I have several big races coming up next weekend. At the same time I put the 250# pound springs back in that were matched to the LCA bar and new front sway bar. Except...I noticed a difference and upon further review found one of them to be a 200# spring instead of a 250#, wrong one came in the box. FML!!
So I put a set of 200# springs I had in so they'd match and test drove it.
Here is the video that shows the inside rear tire with the chassis mounted bar on all three settings and then the LCA bar...all taken Sunday in similar type conditions.
My conclusion... While the chassis mounted bar really helped the street manners, it was too much sway bar to use for autocross. There may be other adjustments that can be made to other parts of the setup to help it all work together, but right now I just don't have the time to be trying to find them. Maybe I'll give it a shot again in the off season. For now I'm going with what I know works.
I got the correct 250# spring in yesterday and after a quick install I made a trip to my favorite parking lot and could tell in just one turn that it was better...WAY better. It's back to being balanced in the turn like it has been since stage 2 was installed and the hoppity hop is gone. I then put the car on the scales, set the ride height properly with the driver's weight in the seat and adjusted the springs until the cross and left side weight equaled 100% and locked it down.
It's full of gas, just needs a quick bath, loaded on the trailer, rest of the gear loaded up and I'm heading to the SCCA Nationals in Lincoln Nebraska first thing Saturday morning. I was invited to participate in the CAM Pro Solo Invitational on Sunday which I'm really stoked about and then I'll be racing in the new CAM Contemporary Class at the Solo Nats on Tuesday and Wednesday.
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Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
Brian Hobaugh SCCA National Tour June 2014
First Hemi 'Cuda Convertible Ever Built
Short clips: Goodguys Pleasanton autocross and pit videos
Shows that it's being driven, not just looked at.
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