'68 Camaro stock subframe mods.........

[realcoray]

Originally Posted by AWDPete

I have no idea what you are talking about

Well, I guess there are a couple of ways to look at this. I've owned the car since 1979 and have put about 300 miles on it. The last time it was driven was in 2000. My time frame may be a little different then most!

I'm not the kind of person that will spend large sums of money on a whim, I will educate myself and research it to death before I start spending money. That's where I am right now, research mode. I have a blank canvas in front of me and a goal:the car must be 1:competitive and 2:functional. Pretty doesn't figure into my goal with the possible exception of wheel choice but only after meeting goal 1 and 2. Do I need a new subframe to be competitive, I don't believe so. Will I need to upgrade my front suspension, yes but with what? Will I need to upgrade my 4-wheel drum brakes, yes but with what? What will meet my requirements 1 and 2 without "overkill" or "overspend" to get the job done? It's not so much about; I have $xxxxx to spend - what should I get? as it is; what do I need to do to get my car to meet requirements 1 and 2 and be "capable" of finishing in the top 5 to 10% of an Optima challenge suspension wise?

The suspension is only a part of being competitive, with many people arguing the biggest aspect being the driver. Narrowing all factors down to front suspension, you can definitely be capable in a stock subframe car.

If you're going to go stock subframe there are a few ways to approach it.

Cheap - Tall ball joints or guldstrand mod, new shocks and springs, some form of a-arm upgrade (upper adjustable and stock lower), sway bar and steering upgrades.

Medium - Tall spindles, new adjustable shocks and springs, sway bar, new a-arms.

More - The above plus double adjustable shocks or coil-over conversion or more extreme changes.

I don't have the perception that there is a huge gap between one option and the next. The biggest gap is from stock to any upgrade, and then things get incrementally better or more adjustable.

I'm going with the medium cost option and expect it to be competitive having spent a lot of time reading about components and piecing them together to make a good whole. That's one of the bigger tangible benefits with the aftermarket subframes, in that you can just order it and all of the pieces work together without you having to do much thinking.

Brake wise I have AFX spindles so I just went C5 brakes which are cheap, have lots of pad options and aren't uncommon on track cars. I intend to leave the option on the table to upgrade to C6 ZO6 brakes in case I need to,

[AWDPete]

Originally Posted by realcoray

The suspension is only a part of being competitive, with many people arguing the biggest aspect being the driver. Narrowing all factors down to front suspension, you can definitely be capable in a stock subframe car.

If you're going to go stock subframe there are a few ways to approach it.

Cheap - Tall ball joints or guldstrand mod, new shocks and springs, some form of a-arm upgrade (upper adjustable and stock lower), sway bar and steering upgrades.

Medium - Tall spindles, new adjustable shocks and springs, sway bar, new a-arms.

More - The above plus double adjustable shocks or coil-over conversion or more extreme changes.

I don't have the perception that there is a huge gap between one option and the next. The biggest gap is from stock to any upgrade, and then things get incrementally better or more adjustable.

I'm going with the medium cost option and expect it to be competitive having spent a lot of time reading about components and piecing them together to make a good whole. That's one of the bigger tangible benefits with the aftermarket subframes, in that you can just order it and all of the pieces work together without you having to do much thinking.

Brake wise I have AFX spindles so I just went C5 brakes which are cheap, have lots of pad options and aren't uncommon on track cars. I intend to leave the option on the table to upgrade to C6 ZO6 brakes in case I need to,

Great post This is the kind of info I am looking for.

I agree that going with the full sub upgrade is a no-brainer approach to a decent setup - at a cost. You have obviously been researching this longer then I have, care to share the setup you have decided to go with?

One thing I have discovered with the brake setup is that it will cost about $400 more on the stock spindle then the ATS spindle because you need a new hub and brackets. This narrows the price gap between the stock spindle and AFX spindle enough (in my book) to upgrade.

[Mkelcy]

Originally Posted by AWDPete

Great post This is the kind of info I am looking for.

I agree that going with the full sub upgrade is a no-brainer approach to a decent setup - at a cost. You have obviously been researching this longer then I have, care to share the setup you have decided to go with?

One thing I have discovered with the brake setup is that it will cost about $400 more on the stock spindle then the ATS spindle because you need a new hub and brackets. This narrows the price gap between the stock spindle and AFX spindle enough (in my book) to upgrade.

I've done "Cheap" on my blue '68 - the car I've been driving for about 6 years now - Guldstrand mod, stock UCA/LCA with delrin bushings, AFCO spring adjusters and AFCO springs, Koni adjustable shocks, Hotchkis front sway bar, 3rd generation IROC steering box. The only thing UCA's will do for you is maybe reduce tire rub if you run a lot of caster. Also, you don't need new hubs for C5 brakes, you can have your current hubs turned down to fit inside the C5 rotors. You will need brackets, but they're pretty readily available for not that much. It's a fun car that is more capable than my driving can possibly show off.

I'm doing "More" and then some for my project '68 - 21st Century Street Machine subframe, Lateral Dynamics 3 link rear, and so on. If you do the work yourself, and part select yourself, don't let anyone tell you it's a no brainer. I've spent 2 or more hours planning for every hour actually working on the car.

Finally, I'm planning/assembling parts for "Medium" for my project '67 - SC&C (SPC) UCA/LCA, ATS tall spindles, AFCO spring adjusters and AFCO springs, Hotchkis sway bar, Bilstein shocks, 3rd generation IROC steering box, etc.

Of the three, "Medium" so far seems easier than either "Cheap" or "More" because it's pretty much a bolt on and go as compared to the other two; but then again, I'm much more knowledgeable now than I was when I started on "Cheap."

[XLexusTech]

here is my setup... OEM subframe + reweld, ATS coilover brackets.. I found here "used" which means just taken out of box ... for a steal... ATS tall spindles, SC&C arms.


Point is don't box your self in... if your not in a rush you can get what you want if you watch the classifieds..

[realcoray]

Originally Posted by AWDPete

Great post This is the kind of info I am looking for.

I agree that going with the full sub upgrade is a no-brainer approach to a decent setup - at a cost. You have obviously been researching this longer then I have, care to share the setup you have decided to go with?

One thing I have discovered with the brake setup is that it will cost about $400 more on the stock spindle then the ATS spindle because you need a new hub and brackets. This narrows the price gap between the stock spindle and AFX spindle enough (in my book) to upgrade.

I think you need to come up with a goal for your overall car as it's easy to focus on one aspect like the front suspension and not consider everything else. Every choice affects other choices and they all should fit together, like it's pointless to have the best suspension if the car weighs two tons, or you have a 200 horsepower motor.

My subframe plan right now includes the following parts most of which I have:

AFX tall spindles - Had these for a long time now
SC&C adjustable upper arms (not the lite ones sadly)
Hotchkis sway bar - Probably my least researched item
Detroit speed lower arms
Varishock single adjustable shocks
Detroit speed 2" drop coil springs - Any brand would probably work fine
DSE or Speedtech steering box - Have not gotten this yet.
C5 brakes - Cheap and effective.

In an effort to lighten it and to make it stronger, it has some other modifications, mostly replacing the front crossmember and re-welding.

[AWDPete]

Originally Posted by Mkelcy

I've done "Cheap" on my blue '68 - snip

I'm doing "More" and then some for my project '68 - snip

Finally, I'm planning/assembling parts for "Medium" for my project '67 - SC&C (SPC) UCA/LCA, ATS tall spindles, AFCO spring adjusters and AFCO springs, Hotchkis sway bar, Bilstein shocks, 3rd generation IROC steering box, etc.

Of the three, "Medium" so far seems easier than either "Cheap" or "More" because it's pretty much a bolt on and go as compared to the other two; but then again, I'm much more knowledgeable now than I was when I started on "Cheap."

Hey, good info - Thanks! It confirms what I was thinking. Medium+ is where I think I am heading. ATS spindles because I really don't like the idea of stressing those 30+ year old small bearings with FAR more load then the engineers ever intended. Uca and Lca to shed some wieght and correct geometry a full coilover because they cost less then a bolt-in coilover kit and not a whole bunch more then a spring and shock setup. Actually for me researching what needs to be done is just as enjoyable as building

[AWDPete]

Originally Posted by XLexusTech

here is my setup... OEM subframe + reweld, ATS coilover brackets.. I found here "used" which means just taken out of box ... for a steal... ATS tall spindles, SC&C arms.


Point is don't box your self in... if your not in a rush you can get what you want if you watch the classifieds..

You know I never really gave much thought to looking in the classifieds, could really save some $$$ I'm not in any rush to get it done so time is on my side. I hope I'm lucky enough to find the big ticket item - Wheels - used!

Thanks

[AWDPete]

Originally Posted by realcoray

I think you need to come up with a goal for your overall car as it's easy to focus on one aspect like the front suspension and not consider everything else. Every choice affects other choices and they all should fit together, like it's pointless to have the best suspension if the car weighs two tons, or you have a 200 horsepower motor.

Yes I agree, and I do While I haven't fully decided what I am doing in the rear it will get a similar treatment to compliment the front, either an Alston Gbar or maybe some form of 3 link. Don't worry, I will start a new thread on that once I get the front sorted The BB will likely be replaced with an LS motor, likely a 6.0 or 6.2 - mostly stock at first and will build it after it's in the car with a target of around 600hp at the crank.

My subframe plan right now includes the following parts most of which I have:

AFX tall spindles - Had these for a long time now
SC&C adjustable upper arms (not the lite ones sadly)
Hotchkis sway bar - Probably my least researched item
Detroit speed lower arms
Varishock single adjustable shocks
Detroit speed 2" drop coil springs - Any brand would probably work fine
DSE or Speedtech steering box - Have not gotten this yet.
C5 brakes - Cheap and effective.

In an effort to lighten it and to make it stronger, it has some other modifications, mostly replacing the front crossmember and re-welding.

Looks pretty similar to where I am headed,
AFX
SC&C UCA
not sure about sway but I would like adjustable, hollow to save some lbs
LCA, not sure as I need a coilover lower
full coilover, I will make my own top mount
steering box?
brakes, If C5's will get the job done - Great as they are about half the price of the Z06.
add some front struts

Looks like I'm getting it nailed down, Thanks for your help gents

[deuce_454]

just to answer.. the crossshaft is steel, the lightweight arm uses steel on hardened steel as bearing instead of bushing.. the non lightweight arms uses a high durometer rubber.. needless to say i got the steel on steel type... less friction, and no rubber to rot (just grease it once in a while)

[AWDPete]

Originally Posted by deuce_454

just to answer.. the crossshaft is steel, the lightweight arm uses steel on hardened steel as bearing instead of bushing.. the non lightweight arms uses a high durometer rubber.. needless to say i got the steel on steel type... less friction, and no rubber to rot (just grease it once in a while)

Thanks Deuce