DSE vs TCI vs Art Morrison

[customcam]

Frank i have a Q
So if we get the same car, same power output ,same rear ends, same weight, Gearbox, etc everything identical except 1 has AM or DSE front sub and one has the OESub thats been modified and 1 Driver there will be only a second in it?
On a track like Optima Inv..

[6spdcamaro]

I ended up buying the DSE frame for a few reasons.
1) It allows a wider front tire
2) It comes with power rack&pinion
3) Corvette spindles so i could run stock c6 brakes saves money
4) An Ls engine bolts right in which also saves money
5) It has a splined sway bar. It just makes more sense than the stock one.
6) It is supposed to ride nicer than a modded stock frame.
7) Have you ever seen it in bare metal?????
8) I have seen their cars run, the performance has been proven to me, over and over.
9) I was able to talk to Kyle and Stacy. Talking to them in person gave me huge amounts of confidence in their product. I knew why they did 'that', and why 'this' didn't work.
10) I was able to go to their shop, and talk to the people who build the parts.
11) People on this forum say from experience, build it right the first time. It's much cheaper.

When it came down to the end, I was torn between ridetech and DSE. Those were the companies that i was able to talk to in person at the shows. I'm not saying I bought from them because they are the best handling cars, but because I had confidence in their product and knew the reason behind design. I also knew that they would help me if something went wrong and they could because every person that was there knew more about suspension than I ever will.

[David Pozzi]

TCI has been building street rod stuff for a long time and their market niche is low buck bread and butter builds. Their sub reflects this in using a Mustang II type spindle they make themselves instead of using an Aluminum Corvette assembly. There is a small weight penalty for using more steel parts but it may only be a few lbs. I drove their Camaro at the test and it was easy and pleasant to drive at an autocross. Their choice of springs was on the stiff side and I suggested they soften the spring rates to help that. The TCI car was just built prior to the Super Chevy test, and as far as tuning goes, they were quite fortunate to do so well in their first test, and should have a better ride compromise as far as springs, bars, and shocks after running the car more, - which they plan on doing.

DSE is far and away ahead on car testing and development, which shows up in getting a good ride out of the car and still handling incredibly well. Their subframe is very nice, probably very stiff, and very capable. A hydroformed sub with Corvette spindles and brakes is going to be more expensive to be sure. Does a splined sway bar work better than a non-splined? I think it's more of a cool factor, but you can swap bar diameters and re-use the same arms so there is perhaps a small savings if you do a lot of bar changes. Some of the other MFR's may not have as wide a selection of bar diameters for you.

The Morrison, & Speed Tech, subs are good and I think how the car handles and rides is more up to who is tuning the suspension than how the sub is made. They are probably small differences in camber gain and roll center height or movement, but truth be told, the tires are the biggest factor on sheer cornering power, and the driver is usually the deciding factor on winning or loosing an event.

The Alston sub is good, I think it only lacks proof and tuning at autox and track events. Steve Rupp is using their stuff on Track Rat and it will be interesting to see how it performs.

Jake's sub has performed wonders. I'm not as familiar with it, but he's certainly proved it works great.

I'm less for a stock sub these days, mainly because the new subs clear wider tires, & are more easily adjusted for ride height with coil overs that you can get at much easier than on a stock sub. I've also seen higher torsional resistance on the aftermarket subs than I thought they ever had.
David

[tones2SS]

Frank hit the nail on the head with his post. Excellent explanation.
For me, I'm going all out DSE sub frame and DSE Quadra-Link. Speed-Tech would be my second choice.
GOOD LUCK!!

[skatinjay27]

alway great to have your input on threads like these dave!

[LowchevyII]

Originally Posted by ItDoRun

What do you plan on doing with the car?

My basic plan for the car would be to hit up some auto-x and when i get more driving skill, hit up track events. I would love to car to be a somewhat daily driver, though i have a car that would be my daily driver for gas price reasons.

I have to say thus the responses here have been awesome so far. great info, thanks a bunch Frank and David, and everyone else that has contributed.

Keep the info coming ive really enjoyed the reading and now have some food for thought and some decisions to start making.

[ItDoRun]

I decided to weld up the stock subframe, convert it to the Chicane coil over system with QA1's, Speedtech UCA's and LCA's, Speedtech tie rod sleeves, a 3rd gen steering box, and Hotckis sway bar. Should be more than sufficient for street use...and a lot cheaper!

I don't plan on any hard core autocrossing or road racing, so in theory, I probably went overbaord on what I did, but if I do decide to dodge a cone or two one day, it's already set up for it.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Originally Posted by customcam

Frank i have a Q
So if we get the same car, same power output ,same rear ends, same weight, Gearbox, etc everything identical except 1 has AM or DSE front sub and one has the OESub thats been modified and 1 Driver there will be only a second in it?
On a track like Optima Inv..

Don't know. That senario would be so hard to prove it will never be known.

What I do know is on autocross, Kyle Tucker is probably the most experianced and best driver of the top 5 at RTTHs and while Jason is a good driver, he would be the first to tell you he has WAY less autocross experiance then Kyle who races almost every weekend in the same car, and Jason's car was right there time wise with stock subframe and leaf springs. And Jason had never autocross the car either, it was first time out for the car. Bret from Air Ride is probably as good or a VERY close second in total lap times as Kyle and lead most of the day with a stock subframe and Air Ride, and at the end of the day was witin a 10th.

So yes, on the autocross I believe a modded stock sub can do very well.

As for high speed stabily at Optima or the likes, no one really knows. It only makes sense at higher speeds the "geometry numbers" of the high end after market frames HAVE to come into play. But then on the big track horsepower has proved to be king so far. And driver plays into the equation even more.

Again, I hate up selling and selling stuff to people they do not need or cannot really afford. The Pro Touring movement with all these badd ass builds going on has a tendancy causing us to feel pressured to NEED all the trickest stuff to have a cool car, and it simply is not the case.

But hey, if you got the dough, by all means give me a call and buy a subframe, I would love to sell one, but if you have not got the money for it, you don't need it.

[LowchevyII]

Originally Posted by ProdigyCustoms

but if you have not got the money for it, you don't need it.

well put. think you made my decision. its probably for the best i do it this way. 22 years old i cant afford to do this high dollar stuff. maybe in my mechanical engineering classes ill be able to design some stuff down the road. but for now i think it might stay stock sub with some good bolt on stuff. i honestly just wanna see some progress on my car again.

[Vegas69]

I really think at some point in the build process a car needs a subframe. Like most of us, my build ballooned into more than I ever planned. Frank & the boys at Prodigy had the stock subrame welded in and the sheet metal hung when I decided it was the wrong decision for the direction of the car. In the original posters situation, a gulstrand mod, good alingment, and especially some sticky tires is the best advice.