EFI and Electric Fuel Pumps...

[Blown353]

Actually, installing the regulator back at the tank will probably keep fuel temps substantially cooler as you aren't constantly circulating fuel through the hot fuel rails and lines up in the engine compartment.

On a setup that doesn't need a boost-referenced regulator, that's not a bad way of solving the fuel heating issue.

The regulator at the tank and deadhead at the intake may pose an entirely different form of vapor lock problems; i.e. you park the car and engine heat boils away the gas in the rails and injectors. With a "normal" setup, when you turn the key on and the fuel pump cycles fresh fuel is circulated through the rails clearing the vapor so you have fuel at the injectors when you go to crank it. With the deadhead install Aeromotive recommends, you may have to crank it a bit until all the vapor is expelled out the cycling injectors and you get good fuel into the engine-- then it will start.

I still think a fuel cooler, along with a PWM pump speed slow-down for cruise conditions is the best option... and with the cooler sized appropriately and given good airflow it should keep your fuel tank at ambient temp at all times. That's a good thing.

[RickWI]

Originally Posted by Blown353

Rick, I don't think the problem so much is the heat taking out the pump, but the temp of the fuel exceeding its boiling point; thus, you boil the fuel and get vapor lock. Fuel pumps can't pump vapor, and when they start pumping boiling fuel the pump cavitates, which is what ends up destroys the pump as all the internals basically get "rattled" to death.

That certainly was happening in a lot of cases as some gas tanks were too hot to touch and is where I was going in my thoughts. Mine never got THAT hot but on restarts you could hear (with my old pump) it caviating trying to build pressure and see the pressure struggle. After we changed the pump though we never had a lick of trouble, that is until the reg started squirting out the vent, damn that was a scrape to get parts (thanks Jay from FAST). But, AFTER THAT issue we never had any more problems.

I like the idea of the modulating controller. That's a pretty pricey device but taking out $500 pumps and being stranded is as well. I don't know what the ultimate solution really is but I can attest to some creative fuel can coolers in use that did an amazing job, for not a lot of money either. course the beer will be warm when you get to the next stop that's for sure.

I don't know the thermodynamics of all these boutique fuels that are out there right now, although I know in So IL the fuel stalled the car out and I needed two cans of Klotz to get things back to normal, but I suspect once cool fuel is pressurized by the pump the boiling point would be raised quite a bit. With the returnless system that may be what keeps them out of vapor lock under low load type conditions. Since I got this new Bosch pump I need to call them to get the flow curves on it. Next week I'll give them a call and ask them about the situation on Power Tour and get some feedback from them.

I think though that you have to put into perspective what we were doing on PT this year, driving for 6-8 hours at a time in 90-95 degree temps, sometimes at 2 MPH, sometimes at zero stuck on the freeway and sometimes at 120 racing Nancy in her Nissan to get a better look at her. It was a pretty taxing environment that I have never experienced before in a highly modified car. I do think the answer is in the OEM designs for whatever reason, although I really need to take a closer look at them in detail. I didn't hear of anyone with a stock OEM production car having any issues. One that was stock or close to it that is.

[Rick@Rick's Hot Rod Shop]

One thing that could AID is a Fuel Pump Speed Controller Aeromotive Speed Controller

[pushrod243]

So to all the fuel experts out there...... I am planning on completely redoing my fuel system from the tank to the regulator whether its on the fuel rail or in the tank like Rick's tanks are setup. The problems i am faced with is I am going to install my turbos next so the fuel system will need a boost reference regulator and enough fuel volume to support 900+ hp. Local advice is to run two aeromotive pumps since i already have 1 A1000 pump on the car now. But i dont think i have room for 2 a1000's. The pump currently is mounted outside the tank and my car was one of the ones on the side of the road on the power tour so i have to fix the heat problem too. I was wondering about the Bosch pumps but cant find much info on them. Any ideas would be helpful.

[RickWI]

Call Earl's Performance in Indy 317-241-0318 The pump I got as model # 0-580-254-044. That's where I picked up mine. I paid $258.90 for it.

[clill]

We put two bosch pumps on the Mule and the side of the road problem went away. They are the pumps used on the Porsche Twin turbo. I can try to get a part #. The Mule is at Wheel to Wheel so maybe we can bug Kurt to take a pic and show how they are mounted. The part I like the most is if one decides to quit I can just go under the car and swap wires so the second pump becomes the main pump. They seem to put out more than enough fuel for the Mule and they are a spec pump for a production car so they are probably more dependable that most of the aftermarket stuff. Aeromotive is probably fine for a drag car but it doesn't like sitting in 100 degree traffic for hours..

[427]

Charley's Camaro has one simple fix in the two pumps. The second pump does not start until you exceed 3psi boost.
I have a seperate tank in my truck about 1 gallon in size. Inside it houses two Walbro 340 pumps. One is on with the key, the other comes on in boost. This system is quiet in operation and has the ability to feed the power the engine will produce(750hp) with a comfortable safety margin. The tank is kept full by the factory pump in the tank, giving me cornering slosh control second to none.
The regulator back at the tank is a good fix for Power tour cars that are not boosted. The boosted one's may want to try a regulator under hood with a semi dead head system. Make the return fuel not go near the engine or any of its components, paying close attention to headers. This would still give a underhood mounting for boost referenced fuel pressure.
Last, the Aeromotive pump is "fragile" to heat problems. It is a great product for racing cars but has some problems with warm fuel.

Kurt

[pushrod243]

thanks guys i like the bosch pump idea seems simple enough and using regulator near engine but not on it. I take it your pumps are external Charley? I plan to put a new tank in the car since mine is leaking now. What turns the second pump on the ecm or a hobbs switch or ??? I am looking at an accell dfi because that is what my tuner suggests but really would rather run ther big stuff unit. He says hes more familiar with the accell and would rather tune it. He also has a new one that was never installed including harness for $1100 but if its wont do everything i need then id rather spend the money the first time on the right unit. Also what do you suggest to run for a boost reference regulator? I had Aeromotive stuff in mind but you guys dont seem to think very highly of its pumps driveablity is the regulator ok?

[427]

Charley's pumps are external.
Second pump is on hobbs switch.
Regulator's, my favorite is the Weldon if it fits, the Kinsler if space is tight.
The Big Stuff 3 is my choice, mostly because its easy to use.


Kurt

Originally Posted by pushrod243

thanks guys i like the bosch pump idea seems simple enough and using regulator near engine but not on it. I take it your pumps are external Charley? I plan to put a new tank in the car since mine is leaking now. What turns the second pump on the ecm or a hobbs switch or ??? I am looking at an accell dfi because that is what my tuner suggests but really would rather run ther big stuff unit. He says hes more familiar with the accell and would rather tune it. He also has a new one that was never installed including harness for $1100 but if its wont do everything i need then id rather spend the money the first time on the right unit. Also what do you suggest to run for a boost reference regulator? I had Aeromotive stuff in mind but you guys dont seem to think very highly of its pumps driveablity is the regulator ok?

[clill]

Kurt..Can you drag your ass under the car and get him a pic ?