3 point belt systems

[Sieg]

Originally Posted by intocarss

If you're going to track your car, I'd like you to be as safe as possible!! ie.. roll cage or roll bar, 5 point harnesses, fire system, racing seat etc etc etc

Understood Dawgy, facts are it may get tracked twice this year. It will get driven on public roads in traffic many more miles and the chance of a serious accident on public roads is much higher IMO. I've pushed it way too long with only 3" lap belts and an old school steering column.

[Sieg]

Originally Posted by CarlC

The retractor mechanism mount will need to be plenty sturdy. For the rear seat retracts a separate reinforcement plate was added on mine to tie in multiple panels.

With the belt coming up from the retract and going forward to the seat, the effective load on the sail panel goes up.

Thanks and understood Carl. That panel is stamped from what appears to be 18-19g material so backing with 16g minimum and anchoring in a manner that would minimize stress tearing would be critical.

Another option I looked at tonight was the strap mount, the challenge is it is right over the rocker and I don't think there's a way to gain access to the back side for a backing plate, lock washer and nut. It would be easy enough to weld the strap in place but I'm not sure what gauge material it is....yet.

[Ketzer]

Originally Posted by CarlC

Something else to consider is that the systems you are considering have the potential to cause you to submarine under the lap belt during a crash. The shoulder harnessses can pull the lap belt up when under tension.

I just put a set of the Schroth Rally 4s in my Nova. Strictly a street car and I wanted something a little better than factory lap belts. I definitely noticed once installed and snugged up, they do have a tendency to pull the lap belt up just as you described.

Jeff-

[CarlC]

Originally Posted by Sieg

Thanks and understood Carl. That panel is stamped from what appears to be 18-19g material so backing with 16g minimum and anchoring in a manner that would minimize stress tearing would be critical.

Another option I looked at tonight was the strap mount, the challenge is it is right over the rocker and I don't think there's a way to gain access to the back side for a backing plate, lock washer and nut. It would be easy enough to weld the strap in place but I'm not sure what gauge material it is....yet.

That would likely be an easier option even if it meant a bit of floor surgery.

You may be able to put a -O- shaped hole in the floor where the slit is just wider than the large washer, and the hole large enough to pass the welded on nut through. With a wire/string the washer/nut could be pushed in through the top, pulled back up, tacked into place, the wire/string removed, a bolt put it for centering, and then weld up the slit to the washer. A "topper" plate could be added if you wanted some additional insurance.

With this the strap can be installed from the top with a top-mounted bolt.

[Sieg]

Originally Posted by CarlC

That would likely be an easier option even if it meant a bit of floor surgery.

You may be able to put a -O- shaped hole in the floor where the slit is just wider than the large washer, and the hole large enough to pass the welded on nut through. With a wire/string the washer/nut could be pushed in through the top, pulled back up, tacked into place, the wire/string removed, a bolt put it for centering, and then weld up the slit to the washer. A "topper" plate could be added if you wanted some additional insurance.

With this the strap can be installed from the top with a top-mounted bolt.

Great suggestion Carl I could probably do the same with 2" x 3" reinforcing plates as well, at least I think there's enough room inside the rocker to position the plate.

I cut some side plates out of 12g today just to see "how it felt" so to speak. I clamped it on the exterior for the photo.



With the plates positioned on the backside of the panel approx. 80% of top line is braced by the stamped lip of the panel, add plug welds, and a 7/16" bolt through the center and I think it had the potential to be strong enough to handle the potential load forces. I doubt the factory roof mount is as strong as the side plate as it's mounted with two 1/4 or 5/16 bolts. If I add the rocker strap to the system the roof mount would most likely fail.

The other issues I'm factoring are all the numerous inherent safety shortcomings of cars engineered in the 60's, an impact hard enough to tear those plates lose will probably put the steering column and/or subframe in very undesirable locations.

Thoughts?

[MX145]

Originally Posted by Sieg

Understood Dawgy, facts are it may get tracked twice this year. It will get driven on public roads in traffic many more miles and the chance of a serious accident on public roads is much higher IMO. I've pushed it way too long with only 3" lap belts and an old school steering column.

I'm right there with you Sieg. I ended up modifying a mid 80's GM tilt column instead of going aftermarket because I felt it was so important to keep the collapsable feature. My car will rarely see the track and car accidents happen all too often. Thanks for sharing your developments on the seat belts. I want to do something similar.

[MX145]

Originally Posted by CarlC

That would likely be an easier option even if it meant a bit of floor surgery.

You may be able to put a -O- shaped hole in the floor where the slit is just wider than the large washer, and the hole large enough to pass the welded on nut through. With a wire/string the washer/nut could be pushed in through the top, pulled back up, tacked into place, the wire/string removed, a bolt put it for centering, and then weld up the slit to the washer. A "topper" plate could be added if you wanted some additional insurance.

With this the strap can be installed from the top with a top-mounted bolt.

Awesome idea Carl!

[MX145]

Originally Posted by Sieg

Great suggestion Carl I could probably do the same with 2" x 3" reinforcing plates as well, at least I think there's enough room inside the rocker to position the plate.

I cut some side plates out of 12g today just to see "how it felt" so to speak. I clamped it on the exterior for the photo.



With the plates positioned on the backside of the panel approx. 80% of top line is braced by the stamped lip of the panel, add plug welds, and a 7/16" bolt through the center and I think it had the potential to be strong enough to handle the potential load forces. I doubt the factory roof mount is as strong as the side plate as it's mounted with two 1/4 or 5/16 bolts. If I add the rocker strap to the system the roof mount would most likely fail.

The other issues I'm factoring are all the numerous inherent safety shortcomings of cars engineered in the 60's, an impact hard enough to tear those plates lose will probably put the steering column and/or subframe in very undesirable locations.

Thoughts?

Sieg, you're doing a great job with this. The backing plate idea on the side panel makes a lot of sense too. I'm assuming the two concerns there are folding up or tearing as the vertical force is applied. I think you solved both issues as long as the panel doesn't want to fold above the reinforced area under load. Your backing plate and location is well thought out.

Back to the rocker mount location, it seems as though something along the lines of what Carl suggested would have to be done. I'm concerned about a bracket top welded tearing off right around the weld. Carls idea of placing a wide plate with bottom side welded nut below the rocker mimics what the factory did by spreading the load out and forcing a larger area to have to be torn through. Granted this force would be pulling straight up rather than more of a shear force like the factory front seat belt locations.

Again, Great Job! Looking forward to seeing this develop.

[DaleTx]

Originally Posted by Sieg

The other issues I'm factoring are all the numerous inherent safety shortcomings of cars engineered in the 60's, an impact hard enough to tear those plates lose will probably put the steering column and/or subframe in very undesirable locations.

Thoughts?

Nice work Sieg... looks like your on the right track to anchor the belt.

I am also wondering about the steering columns in our cars. Not sure what the options are. I plan to do some research on this. Having a collapsible column would be a good idea for sure. You bring up some good points.

[Sieg]

Originally Posted by DaleTx

I am also wondering about the steering columns in our cars. Not sure what the options are. I plan to do some research on this. Having a collapsible column would be a good idea for sure. You bring up some good points.

Solutions can be found here: http://www.woodwardsteering.com/index.php?limitstart=7