===========================
Frank:

I understand that is the law, however I would simply not obey it. My and my families safety and health are worth more to me, than worrying about being caught by the police.

Since I would only be sweeping the parking lot at night, or other times like that, I wouldn't worry about the police hassling me, while I had it.

I know it probably makes me a bad person, but being able to protect myself effectively harms no one. Yes the penalties can be bad, but given a first time offense, and getting a decent lawyer. I bet a fine and probation is all you'd wind up with.

As I mentioned before, "I have decided to take responsibility for my own safety".

....and, "It's better to be tried by twelve, than carried by six".

Ty

Below are my reasons, right or wrong for my stance. I also want to mention that we didn't live in the ghetto at the time or ever. The police said for instance when stealing cars, thieves take public transportation North, steal a car and drive it back to their neighborhood where it is stripped and set on fire.

Please keep this in mind when you read the following. (I'm not implying that the carry Law necessarily would have stopped the following crimes, but it would have been nice at the time to at least have a chance of taking care of yourself.)

In the past before our carry laws were passed,

My Mother's house was robbed 3 times.

My Brother was Car Jacked at Gun Point and told to drive down to the bad side of town, then robbed of his wallet and clothing, down to his underwear and kicked out of his car.

My Grandfather was a night worker at a Hotel. A guy came in and at Gun Point, robbed the hotel and robbed my Grandfather, then shot him AFTER, he had complied. He was 69 at the time. He did survive thank God.

My Father had his car stolen. He walked up on them by accident while they were doing it. They got the car started then attempted to run him over with it.

The Girl I was dating in this time period had her Great Aunt Raped and Killed by a low life that eventually got the death penalty for it. (This was in New Mexico I think) Her father was a Minster and it really devastated the family, especially the Father because what he was taught, and actually having to deal with this type of thing personally, gave him a breakdown during the trial. It was bad.

While in Graduate School, my car was in the Parking lot at school, and two guys broke into it and were attempting to hot wire it, when a security guard chased them off. They tore the hell out of my car, and pulled a gun on the security guard before running away.

My father had his car stolen from a gated community, where of course it was ruined when they found what was left of it. It was his Mom's and kind of special to him.

So far, none of us have had anything like this happen......yet. Since the Carry Law passed. (Knock on Wood)

It's not uncommon now about every other week that a Robber or Rapist in the D/FW area is shot and injured or killed, by the soon to be victim. These types of crimes have slowed down thankfully.

I personally cannot sit around and take the chance of this or something worse happening to me or my family.

I have a carry permit and use it when I feel I have a need to. Before it was passed, many people carried often in their car, and/or on their person when the occasion came up where there was a higher crime rate in the area.

I know I'm biased, but this is the reason I have the perspective I do.

I don't even want to start on the abuses of the Second Amendment, but I'm sure you know how I feel about it.

Ty, I agree with you 100%. But Jody runs a business and there are some laws that he knows he must follow to some degree. He's a pretty responsible guy. But you sound a lot like me, as if it was me, Id shoot first and ask questions later. My name is Mike by the way. :D

====================================
Mike:

Sorry about putting the wrong name. I don't know where my head was. Well let me re-phrase that, I do know where it was thus the mistake.

I'll try to keep things straight in the future.

Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Best Regards,

Ty

No worries at all Ty. :thumbsup:

thanks for the feedback guys, several good ideas. As far as beatings, there have been some but again there's three trucks running every night and this is over a period of 19 years, so looked at that way it's pretty infrequent.

However, these guys have worked for me 15+ years and I don't want them hurt. They seem to have less problem with this situation than I do. I'm just trying to figure out the best way to at least have them somewhat safe.

I've run two guys per truck in the past, but they do not like it as it requires me to add stops to each route, making them longer. I can't have supervisors or other sweeper trucks meet at the centers when they're arriving as the routes are all in different areas, and each truck goes to several different centers every night. If they just went to one or two stops each then it logistically may be possible, but that is not the case here.

If nothing else this further motivates me to keep growing the electrical lighting maintenance side of my business, so I can drop the sweeping and move these guys over there.

Jody

Jody, us that personally know you, know that you are a great guy and hearing how you worry/care about these guys proves it! I think they need some sort of protection. If you drop this side of the business, that doesn't cure the problem, the next contractor will still have issues...these thugs need stopped!

It will all work out I'm sure but remember one beating is too many!!

Ugh, that pisses me off to no end. I had a run in with low-lifes recently too (my daily driver was keyed and had stuff poured on it Christmas Eve right in front of my grandmothers house while we were eating dinner.)

Unfortunately, being that we live in a litigious society (and an especially extreme version of that here in California) I would consult some legal types and make absolutely sure you are not opening your business or yourself to any kind of liability should you decide to provide your employees a means to fight back.

Anything beyond non-lethal means (and I would avoid escalating business-provided means beyond pepper spray) would be up to the individual employee but even then I am unsure how that would play out legally should they ever need the services of their defensive means of choice-- being they would be on the clock in a company vehicle probably opens you up to liability even if they use their own device(s) to defend themselves... which is why you would need to consult someone in the legal field.

It's a sad state of affairs when you can end up serving time just for defending yourself.

Situational awareness is very important... it sounds like a very poor piece of advice, but it really is important.

Things like this are why I'd like to have a concealed weapons permit... but I've been denied twice now. I'm in a non-CCW friendly county (as are the majority in CA) and I'm not a politician/celebrity/etc nor do I have any police reports regarding situations that I've been involved in that would carry some weight in the application process, so I'm "not worthy."

I'm not offering any advice here, but I will state the California law...

It is unlawful to carry a loaded firearm on one’s person or in a vehicle while in any public place, on any public street, or in any place where it is unlawful to discharge a firearm.(Penal Code § 12031(a)(1).)

Keeping the above in mind, if you do not have a concealed weapons permit and are caught carrying a loaded handgun that is registered to you, the first time offense is a misdemeanor and you lose the weapon. 2nd time offense is a felony, as is the 1st offense if the weapon is not registered to you.

Also, there is this exception to PC12031...

Any person carrying a loaded firearm, if otherwise lawful, when he or she reasonably believes
his or her person or property is in immediate, grave danger and that the carrying of the loaded
firearm is necessary for preservation of the person or property during the time interval
following notification of the local law enforcement agency when reasonably possible,
and prior to the arrival of its assistance. (Penal Code § 12031)(j)(1).)

However, that would only provide an exemption from carrying the load weapon in a public place (i.e. the sweeping sight) after the police had been notified but prior to their arrival. So you have to call the cops and then you can try and defend yourself.

It's a messed up state, isn't it?

And even after all that, should one of your employees either obtain a CCW on his own or choose to "walk the line" and carry on their own I'm still unsure as to the legal ramifications for the business and business owner (you.) If they are only pulled over by a cop and the weapon discovered I'm fairly certain that the employee would be the only one facing legal issues, but if the employee actually has to use the weapon while on the clock things may be very different.

Actually, it's county-specific. Most of the rural counties are very liberal with issuing permits. If I lived 30 miles east then I could just apply and I'd be given one; a friend lives in that county and it's pretty much shall-issue. Both he and his wife were granted CCW permits with zero hassle.

It's state specific. I was told this by a friend who is in homeland security.

It is state specific but you must be issued the permit by the head of law enforcement in your specific county of residence; it it not a global state office that issues the CCW permits, but rather one of the law enforcement chiefs in your county of primary residence. In my case, the past sheriff was not very receptive to issuing the permits. (granted he was also found guilty of a couple of felonies himself, but that's another matter....) I only have two non-law enforcement friends in my county who managed to get their permits; ones owns several on-location ATM machines at private businesses and carries lots of cash on him for work, and the other is a farmer who gets lots of stolen cars dumped & burned on his property late at night and he has had several documented encounters with these thugs while out checking irrigation.

Me being a "regular citizen" just wanting to have the option to carry legally in order to defend myself was not enough of a reason to be granted a permit by our previous corrupt Sheriff (he was indicted and convicted of several felonies.) My place of work is in a somewhat rough area of town and I sometimes have to go down late at night to check on some 24/7 environmental testing equipment when it calls me with an alarm condition; I used that as my justification for requesting a CCW but was denied. Now that we have a new Sheriff who is a genuinely nice guy with a level head I'm going to try again and see if I get a warmer reception.

Just look here and see the issuance percentages for the various counties here in CA. Some are pretty sad, others are not bad at all:
http://californiaccw.org/forums/list...3406BA80516A6D