I thought Stielow had the fastest time of the day? If so then he had the most HP out there and it showed in how fast he was at the end of the straights. JA also had the best brakes, BY FAR, or any car out there. That let them drive much deeper into the corners. Gingerman is a momentum track and the combination of kill brakes and crazy acceleration gave Jackass a big edge. Killer car that I would love to have in my garage.

I did not change my set up at all from road course to autox other then a few psi, 2 to be exact. Not track bar adjustment, no shock adjustment, maybe that means my car would of been faster i am sure, but I ran a sub 31 time so it was good for not autoxing since last sept at rtth.

You can't. That perfect scenario of big power PLUS R-Compound tires PLUS experience did not materialize at the 2009 Motor State Classic. Could Jake Parrot have won with 150 more HP? Could Ryan Matthews or Mark Stielow have run a 1.33 on R-Compounds? Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

Furthermore, the posted numbers do not reflect mechanical maladies either. Could Kyle Tucker have won if his battery mount did not fail? Could David Pozzi have won if his brakes were not toasted? Kyle's best lap time was a 1.36, Pozzi's was a 1.39, so you can poo-poo the data, but the Shootout was a different deal. Drivers were really pushing their cars in a manner previously unseen in pro-touring. Both cars could have picked up big time. I think it's awesome that all of the participants respected the fact that the Shootout was the race. You don't win a race in warm up or qualifying. Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

There are only three consistently recurring themes amongst the field:
1) Driver Experience
2) Driver Experience, and
3) Driver Experience

I, for one, am fresh out of excuses. My R888's are insanely awesome. My new Jake's Rod Shop Torque Arm is insanely awesome. Time to fix the driver.

It is a momentum track, but big brakes and 200 tread wear tires does not mean he could stop any better, yes he may be able to stop better, but he woul dneed to be on top of his game to go real deep and be able to modulate the braking to get down to entry speed. I would say it was harder for him to slow then say me on r888s. I have enough trouble scrubbing speed without lock up. its in part due to the hydraboost and instant pressure but i have been able to get comfortable with it, well other then that once time going into turn 1 lol,

Me neither.. but your car is already well tuned. since you have hundreds of laps on it. You were also running a killer alignment.

The adjustment would have made you faster on the autox.. heck, trying to knock off a second is HARD on a 30-second course. lol

By the way, your car looked great out there..

Sounds like a great event. Hopefully it will continue and even a few more events will pop up over the years.

Yes, he could out brake any car on that track. I drove the Jackass and the brakes were amazing. and they work better the hotter they get.

I would say Stielow was "one his game".. he knows the track and he knows the car.

I wish you had Rackpak data since a comparison would be interesting to his. Without that it's just my opinion but I would be willing to bet he broke later and was faster going in than any of us. He was hitting 111 mph at the end of the two big straights.

Those carbon ceramic brakes are just plain bad ass..

Same here.. right now my car is better than I am.. need to work on that. lol

Still, I'm happy with how I did. I didn't baby the car around the track, in fact I was really hard on it. And I turned in pretty good auto-x times.

Now that I think of it that was the first time I had ever driven Penny on a road course...

I really needed to follow someone good (Ryan, Jake, Mark) around the track to at least see the line once.. I think that would have really helped.

He did.

Uhh...Sorry to get snippy. As stewards of this hobby, you and I wouldn't want people to think that they need ZR1 brakes and big power to be fast, would we? Some folks might throw their hands up in defeat. Strap a newbie into Jackass and the lap times will, no doubt, suffer.

Build the best car that you can, get it done, and learn how to drive.

Experience makes up for a lot of mechanical deficiencies. Case in point: Matt Altamore. My new hero.

No.. but if you want to be "the fastest" then exotic hardware paired with a good driver sure helps.

And you don't need to be the fastest to have fun. I would imagine that even the guys with the slower times had a blast.

Just go have fun and don't worry about trophies.

Just to stir the pot...:D I compared myself to a 91 ZR1 with A6's at my first and second event to see just how much better I got. I gained over 1.75 seconds on him from one event to the next. The first track was also better suited for me. Only changes......10mm less out back...20mm more up front....lighter wheels....r888'....probably a slightly better driver.

What you need to do well:
experienced driver
sticky tires
horsepower
brakes
light weight
good suspension
good setup
proper gearing

The track:
2 short straights
2 long straights
Hard, straight braking zones at the ends of all 4 straights.
long sweepers with some bumps
can't see very far ahead, need to know the course well to properly position the car.

JA had the most HP or very close to the most, the DSE 2nd gen looked very strong too. JA had wider rubber, best brakes and very experienced driver who knows that track.
DSE cars were very well set up and strong running, well driven. Their 69 Camaro always seems to have a bit more understeer than the 2nd gen. I would expect them to do even better on softer rubber. Of all the cars there I was hungry for a chance to drive JA and the DSE 2nd gen.

I was quite impressed with Jake and his 69 Camaro, great job!
Matt got around the track well and I never did get over to take a look at what he's got "under the hood"

The timers showed who had the best car/driver combo that day. We can speculate all we want but it's just guessing. I think it's a safe bet the DSE Camaro and JA would go even faster on stickier rubber. Jake would improve with more laps, Penny needed more shock & spring tuning and better brakes, hp was good but lower gears would have helped put the rpm's more in the power band.
I wouldn't count leaf springs out totally, but who really knows? It would make handling the bumps in the sweepers tougher, but by how much in time?
David

i wish i had a racepak on as well, one will be ordered, where can i get the best deal on one steve?
i wish we knew, i am betting to say that i went as deep as anyone, as i had r888s and i had to have more corner entry and exit speed then you guys in order to be fast, and keep up. This is where a momentum track is a plus to different hp cars, because if you can drive you can run similar times to bigger hp cars. If we were at lets says watkins glen, i bet stielow and ryan would of been 4-5 seconds faster then me, as there are a few really long straights there.
all in all it was a great time, and it will be fun to see what happens at the optima challenge.

Call me and I will see what I can do on the Racepac :)

I guess you had to experience the carbon/ceramic brakes on JA to understand what I was trying to say.. they were really quite amazing.

i hear ya steve, I bet they are unreal, as well they should be.
I will call ya.
jake

In my opinion to do well at a road race track you need experience. I started autoX then I did road racing. I did it all wrong. If you want to become a good driver start in a well sorted low output car, you have to learn technique and momentum. I started road racing in my '69 Camaro back in 1993. I had guts and was not afraid to "send it". Through this process I developed great car control skills. Looking back I'm glad I didn't crash more often. Later in life I started to drive low powered vehicles. Developing those skills helped me with the faster stuff.

Attached is a data trace of a Corvette Z06 and a Solstice. One has 425 HP and one has 177 HP. If you look at the speed trace the cornering speeds are about the same.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q...5/Picture1.png

When I do driver training at I force the guys to use the Solstice before we get them in the Corvettes. It also allows the guys to work there speed up and learn the line.

I use a DL-1 box to data log. http://www.race-technology.com/description_8_956.html

They are about $900 and are very easy to use.

If you can get a fast guy to give you a data trace then you can compare your speed to his. If you don't have a faster driver then look at the data for smoothness and corner speeds.

In general go fast in the fast places and slow in the slow places. It is all about courner exit speed. Learn to drive with the tach. You should know your speed at track out for each lap. Then work it up.

Next work on you braking points. Pick a point the work it down deeper into the corner.

Learn how to heal toe down shift. It is a lot of fun when you master it.

But just getting out on track is the first step..:thumbsup:

Mark

Great advice!

I had an opportunity to drive a friends spec Miata, it was loads of fun, you can work on your lines and braking points and see the results by the higher tach reading at the ends of the straights. You can really learn a lot driving them. It just sucks to get stuck behind a car with more power that can't corner as well.
David

That is what they taught me at Michelin training in SC years ago. TW numbers are really only useful for comparison within a particular brand. Theoretical example (assuming same relative size/speed rating, etc.): I’d expect 300 TW Michelin to outlast a 200 TW Michelin and outlast a 400 TW off brand, but maybe not a Bridgestone with a 200 TW. When Michelin changed the TW rating on the MXV4s from like 120 to 320 (something like that) nothing else on the tire changed - they told us that. Granted my training was related to the replacement market and not race tires but I think you guys are saying the same thing applies to race tires. Damn, I just realized it was ~15 years ago and now I am depressed.


I ran into a guy at Carlisle this weekend that was at this event and he said it was just awesome. I don’t remember his name he had a really nice blue 1st gen (IIRC a 68) with lots of DSE stuff. Maybe I have a pic somewhere.

As Rupp say's, "I didn't build a track car". But, I have to say, Tom McBride from Bowler Transmission drove the H*ll out of the Fairlane. The Fairlane has original stock steering, upgraded stock suspenion and street tires. With Tom's driving and the motor that Rupp built, it was good enough for 31.127 in the autocross. :hail: I wish we would have had a 3 point harness to get timed on the Gingerman track. It was a Great Event. It was good seeing every one....

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/h...ns/2ai1wqq.jpg

Where do I sign up!!!???