You know what. Forget it. I thought this was a completed design available for consumption. I guess I was wrong.

I am not asking for drawings. All I wanted was few few resultant values from their design. I am not going to back calculate anything.

So because I ask questions, I am some evil person trying to steal ideas. No.

I realize mark is not here and I am sure he will respond accordingly. Here is a scenario.

Six months down the road Mark and company are selling this. I stumble onto their web page and it talks about the AS geometry and how it is adjustable. I think cool, what kind of adjustability range is there?

What will the answer be. That is proprietary information, or it is between XX% and YY%.

What would you want the answer to be.

Listen, I am sorry. Hey just because I know some terms and math doesn't mean I want to build my own one off. Relax everyone. No one is trying to steal anything.

I'm just suggesting you dial back the tone just a bit.



....and btw, I would never actually say something bad about a man's dog. That's just not cool.

i'm not gettin into this one..... but i will add, a bare 1st gen 12 bolt housing weighs in at 64# (i just sold/shipped one last week)

i think the q&a's were answered for the most part, and goin off of numbers for suspension programs is fine..... but what will "sell" is when the set up is installed and tested under real world conditions, hard numbers of before/after. so would be customers can have an idea about how the system will improve the performance of their car.

EDITED: some of my reply was answered while i was typing

Iapitapun, you're not out of line for asking questions, but what seems to have set off some people is your approach. It's not the questions, it's how they were presented.

:eek:

And what would be wrong if he did? I happen to resemble that remark :D

No comment on the tech question, that part just gave me a good laugh.

Wow.. Mark told me about this thread.. this is even more vitriolic than the Air Ride thread on PT.com except the roles are switched around.. lol..

Lots of good info though.. Oh, and Katz works for Mark.. that is good enough for me to be a believer in what they turn out. I am sure that once the system is on the streets it will be "put though the paces" to give performance data.. after all engineering specs are fun but it all comes down to what the car can do.

Wow, I go to work and look what happens.

I just want to add that you had asked a few very specific questions-and they were answered if you had read the entire text.
1. Yes, it is adjustable.
2. Just below the axle centerline and ground clearance would depend on your ride height.
3. Neutral at the lower end of the scale.
4. 70% AS and what the heck is anti lift?
5. CoG is about 20".
6. Not sure, I guess he missed that one.
7. How is this relevant to determining if the system will work or not?
8. .100" tube thickness
9. Eliminated 30 lbs of unsprung

I know this won't help any, but if this is the same thing that is on Lateral 1, I know it works. I've seen the car run the track and it looked better than quite a few factory cars running out there.

Mark, if you ever figure out the tail pipes thing, I just may get this. In fact, if I can figure out how to put the money together, I WILL get this. Just make sure it fits my 2nd gen Camaro. Heh... I've waited two years to drive it again, what's another two? :rolleyes:

are you serious?!?! You should know this one!! Anti-lift can cause reduction of rebound travel in the rear suspension under braking. Like anti-dive in the front suspension. This is a common trait in 3 link suspensions possibly due to length of upper link. Im no suspension gure so cap that flame thrower iapitapun! heeheeee :_paranoid
He might type off as an axe hole but he's asking the right questions and Mark has no problem with it so why should we? This is the part of being a new business and going to an open market.I think Mark asked us to keep it civil so lets all take in a deep breath and inhale....hold it....hold it.....

I'll do my best to make everyone happy, but it is the middle of the night, and I am tired.

A bending moment is present anytime a link is subject to a force that is not purely compressive/tensile (let's forget about torsion for the moment). As the Watt's link is a dynamic setup, the geometry, and therefore force direction will change as the system is placed in bump/rebound. The force will in many cases be applied to the link in a manner that is not directly in line with the centerline of the tube = tries to bend the tube. In the case of the Watt's linkages, this is not a big deal at all because the links are so short. For long trailing arms, it is more of an issue, and the exact same principle applies. It has nothing to do with the fact that it is linked by rod ends. As far as the geometry (i.e. link lengths, bellcrank dimensions), I stated previously that there really isn't any magic to the system, if you model the thing up in Solidworks and move it through travel, you will see what I mean. You have my permission to bring a tape measure and get the dimensions, but this is the sort of design specific info that I will not disclose, I am sorry if you can't understand why.

Again, not trying to sound evasive, but here is the answer to the roll steer, A/S, etc, versus ride height question. There are two adjustment holes for the lower control arms. There are three for the upper arm. There are four position to locate the Watt's linkage. Based upon the questions, it is clear that you understand that roll steer, A/S, SVSA are all completely interlinked, so for every iteration of ride height, there are 24 possible combinations. The ride height "range" was derived by looking at several typical cars. It basically encompasses a "low" height that is basically the same as Charlie Lilliard (Stielow built) "Mule," which we found is about an inch or so lower than my car. On the other end, Stuart Adam's beautiful car sits a bit higher. I do not have the specific numbers in front of me, but the basic range is of the order of 2 or so inches in variation, but you can go lower or higher, we just don't see a real need or reason. If you can give me a reference point of where you'd like to base the numbers, we can model the results and give "numbers." If I sound like a jerk here, I am not trying to be, but given the fact that there is infinite adjustment between the amount of ride height, well, the spreadsheet of values would get pretty long.

The lowest point on the suspension system is where the coil-overs mount to the axle. This point lies above the rim height of a 17" wheel, so if you curb the car, the wheel takes the hit (first). The lower Watt's mount on the axle is only a few inches below the axle centerline.

The design is complete, and it IS ready for public consumption. I am sorry if the answers I have given are not satisfactory, I probably left something out. I would ask that you at least give us the benefit of the doubt, or rather, ask the same questions of everyone who sells this stuff and is even willing to publicly disclose this type of information, and see what you get.

Thanks,
Mark

You cannot react a moment through a rod end. So, there is no bending moment. Example. Fix your link to a wall and hang off the end. That is a bending moment. When you hang on the link it bends. Now take the attachment at the wall and replace it with a spherical bearing. Then hang on it. First you won't be able too because it will slam down parallel to the wall. No bending. About the only think the link can do is buckle under axial loading. That's it.

As for the other stuff, thanks for the answers. I will just leave it at that. I never wanted a spreadsheet. Just ranges. So if you took the lowest AS, ride height, etc and then the highest. That is all I wanted to know.

I would concentrate on SEMA. It is quickly approaching. I will monitor this thread. Posting will become more infrequent. I get the feeling I am not welcome here.

One point of advice. Watch all your friends on this board. If people start flocking here to check out this new suspension. They may scare them off. Your friends will buy it because they know you and have tracked your efforts. Customers A-X, do not know you and will ask similar questions, probably more probing. I myself had more questions, but they can wait.

I am not 100% satisfied with the tech brought forth, but I will refrain from final judgement until SEMA is over. Your efforts should be placed on that rather than this for now.

Vince, I was being a jerk. Of course I know what the unknown keyboard bandit is talking about but anti-lift is not tecnical measurement that can be made but rather a conclusion that is drawn based on how short the SVSA is. I just figured since "he", who he is, is being an azz (IMO) and I jumped at the chance to be a smart azz.

BTW, iapaitapun, I have spent the last 2 decades dealing with vendors and design engineers in the automotive world on a daily basis. Mark has brought forth 100X the tech any other vendor would. 99% of the time the response would have been "if you want all those answers buy it and measure it all yourself".

hey
 

someone should find who and where this dude is from, how do you track an ip address ??
hero for sure
jake

I really don't get it. At the core of my posts is tech? What is wrong with that? You know someone mentioned CC earlier. At least there you can get tech. I realize you all love Mark and you want him to succeed. Not everyone knows him.

So I guess the focus of this board is to track IP addresses because I ask some technical questions. I hope you don't treat all new members like this. Quite simpley I asked soild tech questions that had answers. Sorry for the questions. I will ask no more. So, you all won.

Good luck.

You've mentioned corner carvers twice as a good place to get questions and tech answered. I would say that site is the worst place for a new guy to come into for answers. They treat people with a level of disrespect that is famous on the internet. If a person asks a question that they deem stupid they are all over him. Do an internet search on that site, you'll get tons of posts about how they treat people over there who need info.

Do they know what they're doing? Absolutely, but it is definitely not for the faint of heart! :eek:

Jody

pita
 

why not introduce yourself, you are right we are a tight nit group here, and would you open up to a stranger?? probaly not, as jody said cc is a hardcore site, that does not lend well to newbies, you seem to know rear susp,, but.... jake

Except that the link is not free on both ends. Perhaps there is a more collegiately acceptable term that I am mixing up here. Take the same example, but now place the other end on a different immovable wall. You can use rod ends, solid ends, it doesn't matter because at that instant, it is a static system. Place one end of the link higher than the other. Do not allow either end to move vertically up or down, and push the walls together. The force direction will be at an angle relative to the centerline of the tube, and therefore not purely tensile/compressive. Perhaps the "buckling" term is more acceptable?

I really don't mind the tech questions at all, but to state that "all" you wanted was tech info is not true, and to further state that you got "no" tech as a result of your questions is ludicrous. You first sought to discredit myself and my team because don't have "degrees in suspension engineering." Well, last I looked, this was not a discipline that was offered. I doubt very much that you learned everything you needed to apply to real world problems, that is, if you have indeed engineered solutions to problems, I'll assume you have. Let me give an example, the sharpest optical engineer that I ever had work for me never studied optics in school. He received his PhD in Physical Chemistry, and taught himself optics. Smart people can learn beyond what the diploma on their wall suggests they may know. A statement like "you aren't even a suspension engineer, nor an engineer for that matter," would only come from an engineer that feels he/she knows more than anyone that doesn't have a degree. You should be proud that you finished a graduate education, good for you, honestly. A degree doesn't make you able to solve all problems, and not having one (which I do, by the way, in one of the hardest technical disciplines) further doesn't mean that you can't.

I can assure you that not everyone on internet forums "loves" me. Lateral Dynamics was not formed to "make us rich and sell lots of stuff." There are far easier ways to make a lot of money than this business, I can assure you. If I wanted lots of money, I would have stayed in corporate America and sucked up, but that is not something that I am capable of. All we want is to help cool people with cool projects, and have fun with it all, this is pure honesty.

That you won't even tell people your name, what kind of car you have, or anything leads me to believe that you are not an interested customer, and that's fine. Regardless, here are the "numbers."

The most challenging situation is the lowest ride height example, using something similar to the Mule, with a slight rake, this is what we offer. At a 6" rear subframe height, in the "nominal" position for the control arms, the SVSA is 68.5". Anti-squat is 59.8%. Roll steer with the lowest possibly RRCH is 1.03% roll Understeer. In the nominal control arm setting, roll steer range can go as high as just over 6% roll understeer (by raising the RRCH). At this ride height, SVSA can go as high as just over 100", to as short as just over 60". Resultant A/S numbers are 26.5%, and 64.1%, respectively (I over-stated A/S numbers previously by approximately 10%, forgive me).

Again, A/S numbers were derived using a conservative CG of ~19". For more direct comparison withother suppliers, using a 17" CG, the resulting A/S numbers are 65.9%, 29.6%, and 71.6%.

We really would love to meet you, so if you attend the SEMA show, please be sure to stop by and introduce yourself. We will be at booth #52425.

Kind Regards,
Mark

If you eliminate the crap in this thread there is excellent info for those of us who do not completely understand suspension theory.

You are welcome here and most of us are alway eager to learn something new. I think the issue is you walked in here like you would at CC.com and put eveyone on the defensive. It would be nice to know who you are and what you are working on so we could get to know you better. Sorry if you think what has been given is beneath your knowledge base, but for the rest of us, we are always happy to get it because it doesn't happen very often anymore. All numbers do is confuse most of us and are purely hypothetical until you put it on a track and prove it. I don't know Mark or Katz personally, but I do know they won't be happy until this setup is the best on the market.

Mike

Fantastic post, trying to learn as much as possible from all of the knowledgable people out there. Already have a rear suspension designed by Katz, tri-4bar, hoping in the future to chat with him about it, and ask someone on all of the boards to try to tell me what the geometry of my front Martz chassis has. possibly a way to make it better if not that good to begin with.

iapita
 

so did you stop by at sema with measuring tape??
how was mark??? was he not able to answer any questions and prove design???
mark and lateral d crew had an incredibal turn out at the show and it will not be long before you see some serious products out of these guys, by the way who are all awesome in person. i had the priviledge to meet them all and hang out, and they are all stand up guys, who know there ****

They were great guys. It was also nice to finally meet you Jake! :thumbsup:

Jody

Jody, did you slap Jake around alittle? If not, you should have! He likes it anyway.... :P

Jody
 

thanks you too,it was nice talking at the pt dinner,wish i had made the lat g dinner but holy **** i was tired, trip was great, met alot of new people who were all real nice.
oh ya don't listen to that matt dude, he is just jealous, and speaking of liking to get slapped check this out!!!!!!!
jake

Nope, he looks pretty stout and scrappy to me! :eek: Thinking he'd LIKE a good fight and I'm more the "lover" type. :D

Jody

SWEET!! I've allways wanted my ass to be an internet star...you made my dreams come true Jake! :thumbsup:

Jody, you know the saying, "big bark, no bite"? Jake's just a big ol' cuddly teddybear of a guy. :) Except he does like to jump rental cars off of airport speedbumps......

teddybear
 

i'll show you teddy bear, your ass!!! and that speed ramp at 25 mph was nothing,lmao

Well, the show is over, and it turned out to be a far bigger success than I had ever dreamt. Now the only problems we have are trying out what to do first on a very long list of really cool prospects. We'll be doing some strategic planning over the next couple of days, off of our feet, allowing our voices to come back to normal. It was terrific to meet everyone that stopped by, and we certainly appreciate the feedback and suggestions that we have gotten from everyone. To be honest, I thought I would be really tired and want to just relax for a few days after all of this, but I am more fired up than ever. We had some really amazing folks come through, including the founder of the best tech magazine on the market, "Race Car Engineering" from the other side of the pond, and countless individuals that have a bunch of cool personal projects. It was great.

Thanks again for everyone that stopped by, and if there are questions still remaining, get in touch with us and we'll do our best to answer them.

Cheers!
Mark

I saw your product Mark and so far I'm a believer.. I am thinking my Dana 60 is gonna be short lived in Penny.. lol

Nice to meet you and the rest of the LD team.. :thumbsup:

Sounds like fun, Steve, I think it will be a huge improvement in your enjoyment of the car. It was nice to meet all of you guys too, if only for a few minutes. Thanks for the vote of confidence.

M

I'm a believer too,Mark. I wish you guys all the best. :thumbsup:

Man,if everyone at Corner Carvers is like that fella,it's a sure bet you won't be seeing me over there any time soon. I'd get banned in my 2nd post. :mad:

Just for the record, there's no one at CC with that user name. I'm guessing troll of enormous proportions.

Cc
 

Actually and I think you will agree with me Q' that CC isn't as bad as they were before. I had a problem with Jon A, he called me a F'n idiot for wanting to converge the lowers on my 3 link for my Camaro. I think Norm came to my defense. Can't remember it was so long ago.
As far as Lateral Dynamics, I see them going far and with the crew on board now,it can only get better! LOL I hope to be of some assistance in the near future.
I suspect Inpita is a competitor, maybe a voice from AME??
Vin

It didn't appear that the mystery man came by the booth, but I was not there at all times, the other guys didn't seem to think he did though. Honestly, he had some good questions, and I remain completely confident that if he were truly interested in the design, and asked the same questions in person, he'd be totally satisfied with the answers. And if not, well, we'd have (even more) work to do. Without a doubt, there were some really knowledgable folks that came by that had similar types of questions, we took it all in, and are going to make some changes as a result. Good ideas come from everyone, I have learned this so many times, and we certainly don't know it "all." What we "do" know, however, we are very confident in.

Next steps are creation of more platforms, and increasing our basis with more data. Specific, relevant, and documented. There is so much more to real product development than slapping together a design, and sending it to market, at least if it is done correctly.

So, what percentage of folks with interest in our product "need" tailpipes? We are already working on solutions, and will have one very soon, but this is an area that we might have been a little bold on in the early assumptions (i.e. thinking folks woudn't care if they wanted the best handling solution). Not a big deal in that we will solve the issue, but it is a curious question.

Mark

Well, I'd be interested in tailpipes. I have to keep my car smog legal for stupid reasons, and that's something that would make it easier. That and it would make the car a bit quieter.

Tailpipes would definitely be nice, but not if they require the suspension to be compromised.

Need tailpipes.

Here is the way I look at it if you want run this setup then you are pretty serious about performance. No one said that it would be easy to have both the performance 100% of the stock sheet metal in the car. So just cut out the trunk floor run the tail pipes up over everything and out the back. Then build the trunk back around the exhaust. Has any one ever seen the Trunk in JPs II Much all of the humps are not in there for looks the exhaust runs under them.

pipes
 

easy solution would be use the Spintech mufflers that the inlet and exhaust are on the same side of the muffler. Place the mufflers in the location everyone uses and run the exhaust in front of the rear wheels

I'm a total idiot, but......
 

I have always been under the assumption that the lower locating links had to be leave at ride height in order to keep the suspension for binding upon cornering. And with a variety of ride heights that you said this system was capable of with different coilover selections, is there an optimum shock length for this system or does ride height not affect the angle of the lower length. Or is each system built per the ride height of the customers specs.

I have no engineering degree or even a juinor college degree but just asking?
Do you see my friendly tone of voice in my Font. I'M JUST SAYING

Rodger

Actually, the lower link inclination, unless really severe(?) won't have a whole lot of influence on bind in roll, at least not with a three link. The lower inclination is important for a couple of really important factors, but as with everything, there isn't only "one" right answer. One very important aspect for the LCA inclination, however, is how the suspension will behave in bump. If the LCA's are angled downward from the rear of the car towards the front (as viewed from the side), then the car will probably be pretty harsh over bumps, in this situation, the differential will need to move forward as it rises. The only analogy I have for this one is a shopping cart: every once in a while, you can get the front wheels turned the opposite direction but still able to move forward. Hitting a small bump jolts the cart big time, the same thing would happen in the above LCA example.

Regarding the question of ride height, the toughest configuration to deal with is low ride heights, it makes the suspension geometry the most difficult to package and still get good behavior. Raising the car will cause the LCA's to be more inclined, and at a point, you'd want to change them to the upper locating hole (we have all of the goods for adjustment, etc, in the install instructions) to bring the angle back down a bit. It is not overly sensitive on our setup relative to other kits, in that we use really long control arms, so angular changes happen a lot slower (by design). Regardless, we included the other hole to accomodate a variety of ride height choices.

Spring/shock travel is not an issue either, in any ride height, there is plenty of travel in either direction, unless you want to go off-roading, which we wouldn't recommend.

Not sure I answered everything, if I overlooked something, let me know and I'll do my best.

Mark