At A crossroads on whether or not to go Hydraboost
 

My car is a non power steering car with 13" Brakes up front and 12" Brakes in the rear. Usual Suspect conversion kits from Ricks...

I'm not getting enough power from the booster to the brakes and cannot get the car to lock up the tires unless I pump up a lot of pressure before a hard brake....

Recently saw that crash at the autocross of the car that crashed due to the engine stalling and hydroboost failing and it got me thinking. I'm going to get some vacuum readings off my stock zz502 this weekend and see if I'm getting enough vacuum to run a booster.

If I have enough Vacuum should I just run a dual diaphram 8" Booster or should I bite the bullet and do a hydraboost setup and add power steering as well...

$1800 or so vs $350 or so... Pretty big price difference.

I've heard from a few people the zz502 doesn't put out much vacuum. Will see on saturday.

x2 on the feeling I got after seeing that Nova smashed like that. Made me think Manual was the say to go.

Not made any choices yet but it sure made me step back and think..

The engine died and the assist didn't work? Something is wrong there... the nitrogen reserve cylinder accumulates and stores pressure so if you lose power steering you would still have some assist.

Several years ago when I had my car at the strip with the 434, it died as I went through the lights. I had 3 full stabs at the brakes with power assist with the engine off (going about 120mph), after that I just had a hard pedal.

Thats the theory behind the system...

from the autocross thread:

https://lateral-g.net/forums/show...19&postcount=1

My problem is, my car doesn't have power steering so I'd have to add power steering pump, all bracketry, just for the hydroboost. And at that point, I might as well add Power Steering and a 12:1 ratio box. It adds up pretty quick. $2000 just to lock up my brakes, lose some power, and add more things that can fail at the track.

Or just find a booster that works for $300 and call it a day.

Would I be able to run a manual master with my OEM style calipers?

Fronts:
http://lh4.ggpht.com/__OT3YJ9o9Ao/SC...0/PIC-0179.jpg
Rears:
http://lh3.ggpht.com/__OT3YJ9o9Ao/Si...0/IMG_1242.JPG

I just want a nice predictable solid pedal, I don't care if it requires some strength because I'm a big guy, but I need full lock up and I need to rely on my brakes on track days.

For now I baby the car because the brakes are the weak link...

ZZ502 should put out enough vacuum for power brakes. That's a teeny little cam in that thing.

thats another part of the equation. I doubt the cam in the motor will stay stock for much longer. I'll eventually be doing heads cam/intake manifold...

Long term I suppose a hydroboost/electric booster setup would be best, I'm just having a hard time dropping the money on it when I'd rather use it on track days...

Race cars don't use power brakes...

I run big azz Baer discs all around - a Wilwood 7/8" Master cylinder - 6:1 pedal ratio - and I'll throw your azz thru the front window on a hard stop... no need for power anything in my book.

My 56 Nomad is heavy at 4023 lbs... and the brakes work GREAT! 3/16" SS lines... a Wilwood manual adjustable proportioning valve to the rears...

BUT if I ever wanted power brakes - I'd be all over the Hydroboost system... it's just that it's not necessary.

Another thought -- I installed (helped install) an ELECTRIC hydoboost system on my brother in laws blown 69 Camaro --- he has Wilwood disc all around - the system worked great - right up until the electric boost motor quit working... it went back to the factory etc - I finally told him (the BIL) lets just rip all that crap outta here and install a nice 7/8" Wilwood master and be done with it... he's never looked back or regretted it. My SISTER loves the brakes.. if she can stop the car - any 'guy' can!

What is wrong with manual brakes?
F1 indy Nascar IMSA = manual brakes. what makes you think you need power brakes?

if the pedel ratio and MC sizing is correct you will be more than happy with manual brakes.
the black Camaro, Green Nova, Beaumont, Speed Tech Camaro, My Camaro ALL have manual brakes.
and there are about 3 sizes of masters to work with so at WORST you will spend 500 $ if you don't get it right the first or second time.

just my thoughts

I'm sure manual brakes work great on a lighter car, all the race cars I've ever been around have manual brakes and work great... BUT... those are light cars. That 69 Chevelle that Jody and I drove on Power Tour a few years ago had manual brakes. It was a complete Wilwood system with the correct MC bore size... and they sucked. They came around slightly after the 1500 miles we put on it, but they never inspired confidence. Because of that experience, I will never have manual brakes on a street car.

Interesting discussion. I have manual on my FFR and they are fine. It is 2k lbs though :D . I'm undecided about which way to go with the Nova. I took the OE power setup off long ago when the plan was a street/strip car. Then I found Lat-G :unibrow: . I knew it would be unlikely I'd pull enough vacuum to run power brakes. The Hydraboost seemed viable. There are even a few guys using the same setup on their FFR. Admittedly the recent crash of that Nova raises some concerns. I do think that is still an unlikely even though. Like anything, know the risks and move on/mitigate.

I also find this Nova crash it an interesting case study of sorts. Take Hydraboost with what I perceive as a good reputation for addressing a common want/need in the aftermarket. Then one high profile accident related to brakes happens, and almost immediately it is on many auto related forums being discussed/questioned. Marketing peeps really have to be on their toes to handle the efficiency of today's social media outlets.

John

I have a manual car. Everything is manual- brakes, steering, transmission, windows, door locks. You have to drive the damn thing.

The pedal pressure for my manual brakes is about 80lbs. That's only 25 more than a vacuum assisted car and I will pop your eyeballs out of your head and slow the earth's rotation when I use my Alcons to their full ability. My car is not super light either at 3300lbs. Sounds like that Chevelle was not setup to its full potential.

I love Hydroboost and would run one in a heartbeat if I had P/S in my car. They rule. But so do manual brakes.

Tyler

Manual brakes work great, BUT like every thing else they need to be set up correctly.
What car are we talking about?
If you get the pedal ratio correct the brakes will work great.

For example there is a huge difference in pedal ratios of Camaros and Chevelles and power and non-power.
Manual can be made to work, but you need to do the math.
A power set up is very forgiving. If the ratio is incorrect or the master cylinder is under or over sized the power sort of covers it up.

Your system sounds like there are other issues first to deal with.

Find a dirt road and see if you can lock up the rear brakes.

My guess is there is something else in the system that needs fixing.

A good brake bleeding is the first place to start. If you're a little unsure about bleeding take it to a brake shop, most of them have a very cool 'power bleeder'. Paul from Hydratech has a great article on his website about bleeding brakes (Hydra-boost systems are very sensitive to bleeding issues).

Take a look at the brake pedal itself. Are there several holes for the rod that goes to the master cylinder? Which hole is being used?

Take a look at all of the brake lines, are they stock or aftermarket, are they rubber or stainless steel, are they smashed or twisted. The brake line that runs under the engine next to the crossmember is notorious for getting beat up, and gets hot too.
If you have flexable lines at each wheel, how long are they and are they braided stainless steel. Are they -3 or -4?


You say "your not getting enough power from the booster" which booster and master cylinder are you running now?

If the car is older, does it have the combination valve, or is it the later model with a proportioning valve? If you purchased the booster and master cylinder together I assume it had a proportioning valve already plumbed?

Mick

The Nova crash

Something seems wrong.
The engine dies, and the brakes don't work?

Did the engine die and the driver pump the brakes a bunch and it still did not stop?
Hydra-Boost will always give you a few more pedal pushes, thats what the nitrogen reserve is for. No brake system would be designed and mass produced and installed on cars and very large trucks and sold to the public without some sort of safety feature in case the engine died.

Maybe the engine died, he was trying to turn the car and stomp on the brake pedal all at the same time and in the blink of an eye he hit the barrier, I could believe that.
But the engine died and no brakes and he hit the barrier, I don't believe that.

As the late Paul Harvey would say "the rest of the story".
I'm waiting for the rest of the story.



Mick

In the turn he crashed on, there wasnt alot of extra space..... there was a small S-curve and then a long sweeping turn left....... he went straight rather than make the sweep. The course was pretty small and tight and the barried in that corner wasnt far off the track.

When I did my '69 the guys at BAER convince me there was no need to get power brakes.... they make the pedal feel easier but dont stop the car any better.

On the Cuda I am planning on the hydroboost

Man one guy has a trouble with his car and now nobody wants power brakes. The Ford Mustang comes or came with hydroboost for a long time. Alot of heavyduty diesel trucks come with hydroboost. There has been no massive recall. If you watch the pedal camera they install in the road race cars for TV, Say Nascar at Watkins Glen, The drivers give the manual brake an initial pump to check the brakes and set them up to for the turn before they really get on them.

I was at the autocross on friday and I saw them testing the track in the supernova and the car has a fuel issue on left hand turns. Whether it is the carb or the suction line on the tank who knows. The bottom line is when your doing an autocross event in that manner and running hard like that you are right on the edge of disaster with those stupid concrete or water barriers. One slight mistake and you in the barriers. If it was any other autocross event not a car show there would be space and it would be no big deal. The course they had this weekend, I believe was the biggest yet and kinda tight in that corner. On the turn Ty had his brush with the barrier. I don't think the brakes failed totally, he has a less ratio since he has the assist and the track was so tight there was no room to go since he was pushing it hard and the track was so fast.

When you push cars hard things break, if things are not stress your not pushing hard enough. I'm surprised this in the first and only incident with damage.

just my 2 cents, I have manual brakes in some cars and will have assist brakes in others. They each have there application when set up properly.


Rodger

Both of these have manual brakes Pauls (the green one) has Wilwood superlite 4 piston front and Dynalite 4 piston rear with a Wilwood 1" master.
and it stops, you can lock it up but it is actually easier to modulate when they lock up over say the TransAm we did that has Hydroboost. My Car ( the white/grey one) is a drag car and runs the wilwood 10.75" 4 piston front and 11" 4 piston rear with a wilwood 7/8" master ( i wanted more line pressure to hold the car in the burn out box on the line lock so that is why the smaller master) it weighs 3200 with me. and it stops from 137mph. i dont even have a prop valve in it, i have had 4 drag cars with different brake systems the last one was a super comp 2000 mustang with the same brake system as my camaro and it would stop from 168 mph no problem.
Scott i agree with who ever said the Chevelle brake system must not have been set up correctly.
the other thing to consider is how "YOU" like the brakes to feel, maybe the guy who owned the chevelle was an ape and had really strong legs??? i tell guys all day long that you may have to change tha master a couple times to get the "Feel" correct for "YOU"
theres .02 more

I still think you have a basic brake system problem.

If it is a Chevelle, there are two different holes on the brake pedal arm.
One for power brakes and one for manual brakes.
Which hole is the rod in?

If I remember correctly Chevelle has a much better pedal leverage ratio than a Camaro, so all things being equal the Chevelle should be, leverage wise, eaiser (less pedal effort) to stop. If you're a big burly man then you should be able to test the shoulder straps at any time...

WHAT MASTER CYLINDER AND BOOSTER IS ON THE CAR NOW!?

Mick

I'm now a fan of the hydroboost system. Before we had so many problems with it, but once you get it to work properly, oh boy. You guys that have no assist, try one before you say that not having assist gives you the same power, just with more foot pressure. It doesn't. I'm thinking when the plumbing is not correct, it won't have a reserve. Mine did the same thing once it died and I lost my brakes, but when it was plumbed right, it died and I still had my brakes. I think maybe it's all in the set up. If you're building a car with hydroboost, set it up, and test it by shutting off the car in some parking lot where you have room to stop if the brakes fail. You should test it before being on the streets. But the system is really incredible.

If you want to know about Hydroboost and track time, talk to Jake. He has been running one on his race car and testing our new reservoir for us at this time.

I've had my hydroboost for over 3 yrs now and I love it.

for what its worth, on our bigger trucks with factory hydroboost if the truck dies, your not stopping. its happend to me a couple times. even my 08 chevy diesel is hard to stop if its not running. i could see where the issue is, but not a reason not to use it.

I guess the same principle would be the same for a vaccum booster (won't work very well if engine dies). For the OP Rogue, if this issue is a deal breaker then don't buy it and just go manual. I have had hydroboost for 4 years now and like it alot. I haven't tried very many stops with the engine off. The on or two pedal cycles that are left in the accumulator should give you some braking.

I've had quite the opposite experience in an older '80's Chevy. Had the engine die on me going down the road. The first 1 or 2 pumps of the petal were great. After that the reservoir was drained and had very little petal. In that truck, as long as you realized what was happening, one could make a panic stop if needed.

I'm seriously contemplating running a similar hydroboost in my '68.

I would stay with either a brake booster or manual brakes with the right master cylinder. I feel the whole hydrobooster is a bit on the over rated side. I have Kore 3 brakes with a brake booster and 1" bore master and it works great.

the one part of this discussion that escapes me is the use of the e-brake.

Hydroboosted or not, if (manual or power) brakes are lost surely you reach for / jump on the e-brake. May not fully stop the vehicle but sure as hell will slow it down a lot

Hydroboost
 

I'm not sure if they were from supernova but they do go straight into the barrier.....if so looks like the brakes were working...
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/5...2283custom.jpg

Btw Hydroboost is great !!!:thumbsup:

Well it looks like we solved the Nova case, and everyone has told us how much they like Hydra-Boost, but how about the guys brake problems....






Mick

Weird......looks like he locked them up and the car wouldn't turn. Those tracks don't leave much room for error. I'll stick to my wide open parking lots.:D

An object in motion will stay in motion unless acted upon by an equal and opposite force. (from my cloudy memory)






Newton First Law.
simply stated an object in motion tends to stay in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force


I guess if the engine died, the power steering (or lack there of) is all about shoulder strength and the leverage of a 14 inch steering wheel...
Mick

I had a pump failure in my old GMC (2001) and I had almost no brakes. There was no reserve pressure at all. The steering sucked too. I almost went in the ditch.

HydraBoost works, here it puts my brakes on fire. No lock up and engine is on power.

http://www.protouring.se/files/gullabo_braking.jpg

BTW, this is a professional racedriver, not me driving :cool:


Jan

Looks like manual it is. I'm going to take the car to Abs Power Brakes and let them sort it out. I like the idea of less parts and the manual setup. Less parts, less chance of failure.

Besides its more traditional :thumbsup:

I went manual as well, CNC dual MC with brake bias adjuster:
http://www.cncbrakes.com/mc.asp?grp=...718&subseries=
Check valves on both front & rear lines to reduce travel.

There's nothing wrong with concept of Hydroboost. Millions have been made over several decades.

If it loses pressure, and the reserve doesn't work, you get manual brakes. So it's strange that people say get manual brakes, because if hydroboost fails, you'll end up with manual brakes.

I put one in my car. Filling the fluid and waiting for it to de-burp is a pain. Other than that it is one toe braking. And I do shut off the engine and coast into the garage so manual braking is okay.

The difference is that you (typically) end up with a much smaller bore MC when doing a traditional manual brake set up.
If you have a power brake setup, with larger MC, you'll end up with a much higher pedal rate to achieve the same brake torque.

In a panic situation, you usually don't have the room to accommodate the decreased effectiveness of your brake.

Right. Also, there are two different pedal ratios between a manual set up compared to a power system.

Comparing a manual system, to a system set up for power assist that looses power assist, is not accurate.

That's true, but in many cars you can alter the pedal ratio and use power brakes too.

In the case of the nova the sudden loss of PS /PB caused the smack. But it was the fault of the fuel design not hydroboost.

In a panic situation, there's no way you could set the system to work similar to a manual setup. While you are correct, the discussion is more about the situation than the physics.

If the brakes rely upon the power steering (or pressure reserve) and they fail, it equals a brake failure.

I disagree -- the Hydroboost systems store enough pressure to operate the system for 2 or 3 braking operations. I cut and pasted this from Hydraboost FAQ's:
The bottle on the side of most hydraulic brake assist units is referred to as an accumulator or nitrogen reserve. This stores up hydraulic power steering pressure in the event of an engine stall condition, to provide reserve brake assist power for up to 3 applications of the brake, similar to how a vacuum booster would function in an engine stall condition.