Prices?!?!?!
 

New guy again...having been out of the scene for a while I'm very much out of touch with today's pricing. I just called a guy about an LS1/LS2 install in a 66-67 Nova and he said he did one that ran about 20k?!?!?! This confuses me when I see things like the 350 Ram Jet for $4,900 (minus installation)...big price difference. I've had similar experiences with other calls. Are these guys blowing me off or what? Granted...I don't have the car yet and, yes, I feel bad that I am taking their time (I try to be brief and to the point), but I'm also not about to get myself into a project that ends up 50K over budget. I'm trying to be smart here and know what I'm getting myself into.

I understand cost is a sensitive subject. If I spent a ton of cabbage building my dream car I probably wouldn't want to tell people off the street what I paid either.

I can install and/or assemble the engine myself. I've done it before but these days I just don't have time. (I guess I could drop the Ram Jet in easily enough.) But this is frustrating. HELP! :eek:

on a 66, there are a lot of things that need to be changed to get an LS1/2/7/X in there. Mainly the gas tank if i remember correctly needs a return line to the gas tank. This means you either need a new gas tank/ or a custom sending unit with the pump installed in the tank.

$20,000 does sound a bit high... i hope that includes the price of a motor/tranny. But in fairness, it does take some work to do it right.

I failed to mention he did say that included the price of the engine tranny. And sticker shock made me forget that he broke it down...5K labor and 15K spent on engine and tranny. Should rebuilding and LS1 cost 15K?

I have a better shop in Rancho Cucamonga.. and he would not only be cheaper but do a better job (it's where I did my '69 Camaro)

$15k for the engine and tranny???? :rofl:

You can buy a new LS2 for $5500 and a new T56 for $3k.. that leaves $6500 for "incidentals".. and that seems like an awful lot of "incidentals".. has the guy done LS1 swaps before? Did the $20k include the fuel, cooling, mounting systems? Computer programing? Harness? engine accesories? new engine? used engine? rebuilt engine? All of those things effect the price.

Like I said.. I could help you get it done cheaper than that.. If you are looking at an LS1 then I am pretty sure you can find the engine and tranny for somewhere near $5k.. then you will need labor and some $ for stuff like motor mounts, wiring and such.

Email me at [email protected] :)

Sounds reasonable to me.

It all depends on what you want.. if you would be happy with a mainly stock LS1 (for now) then you could find a clean pull out engine by shopping around. Maybe you could toss a cam in it for $400. I bought my LS1 for $2800 delivered and it included a 4L60e trans, a T56 would cost a bit more. The key is to buy a pullout engine with all the accesories and wireing harness. Then you will need the following:

Wireing harness rework = $450 from Speartech
Engine mounting plates = (not sure on a Nova.. maybe ATS or you could make some.. lets say $300)
Computer reprograme = $350
Fuel system = depends, rework the factory tank and use a regulator from '99 Vette or buy a custom tank (~$800 from a place like Ricks) and use the same regulator.

Other incidentals will depend on what you want. If you want aftermarket gauges then you will need a few fittings and the gauges. A few hours to have them installed or do it yourself after the car runs.

Oh, and you will most likely want headers. You could make the factory exhaust manifolds work on the cheap or find some. Make sure when you get the pull out engine that you get the O2 sensors.

All the rest is just fluff.. you can use your stock radiator with a little work but you will need electric fans. AFCO sells an LS1 swap radiator for about $500 and the fan/shroud for $250 or you can shop around.

Did his price include all this stuff (cooling, fuel, etc)?? I would imagine those would be "upcharges". I would say you should be able to get it done nicely for $15k or less. Most of it depends on how much you spend on the doner engine/trans.

Poor man, there are always things that "ya don't think of" when doing these cars that bring the price up. Sure he could low ball ya then pump it up after your into the project. The quote was probably because he does not want you to be suprised when the REAL final # totalled up. What ever you think it will cost just double it usually, for me anyways, LOL.

Grrrr...can't email from work Steven. Will email you tonight.

Stuart...that's what I was afraid of. :(

Does anyone around here use the 350 Ram Jet? One of the car magazines put one in a 66 Nova and it seems to have been a pretty easy install (with a few mods) :rolleyes:

There's nothing wrong with a 350 Ram Jet (well, besides hood clearance).. but it's not an LS1.. :)

The LS1 install isn't "hard" but it does have costs and effort involved.

Like Stuart said.. if the guys price included EVERYTHING then maybe it wasn't so bad.. but you could do it cheaper than that if you tried. The problem is when you start doing the "while Im here I might as well..." You do that a few times and the costs really get up there. lol

20,000
 

20,000 does not sound so bad, If that includes the engine and trans. Ls2 5500, trans 3000, clutch and flywheel, 500ish, pedal assembly to run clutch400, drive shaft 350, alternator 200, belt system 400, radiator450, hoses 40, fan 100, shroud, headers 500 exhaust system 500, computer, 400, engine harness 750. motor mounts labor 1000.

Plus while you are there new brake lines since you did the pedal assembly, you will probabley need to do something to the front suspension, and on and on. From my persective 20,000 sounds cheap. I put a used ls1 in a 62 olds and have more than 20,000 parts and labor.

Rodger

What he said.

Soooo...sounds like it would be less expensive (and less cool) to buy a new Vette than build one of these?

Always. But a Camaro is soooooo cool. New vettes are like belly buttons....

You can buy new vettes for $20k??? lol

The bottom like is that it's as expensive as you want it to be :)

yeah but
 

The vette will lose value and the nova should stay pretty valuable unless you beat the crap out of it or slap it togther poorly.

Rodger

LOL! No, I can't get a new Vette for 20K. I want to build a daily driver to modern performance and comfort standards...so that's going to entail a lot of interior, suspension and brake work too. Dropping 20K on the drivetrain right off the bat sure makes it seem like I'll get up above the 40K mark quickly (I'm including pruchase price of the car).

I set a self imposed limit of 30K (ok I'd go 35K). But the more info I get, the more I doubt that I can put together a car I'll like for so little. Unless I decide to turn wrenches myself...which I don't really have time, energy or space to do.

Although it seems I'll save a lot of money if I buy a 350 Ram Jet and install it myself.

Indeed, but I suspect if the build cost exceeds 35K my wife will tell me to buy another BMW instead.

The way I justified this whole idea to her was that I was sick of buying a new car every 3 years and always having a car payment. This way I have a car that will hold my interest for many years that I can pay off. When it's worn I can just get it repainted or drop in a new mill or whatever it needs instead of buying a new car (not bad eh guys?) :unibrow:

I installed a RamJet 502 myself and thought it was easy. Look at it this way, the Vette's resale will keep going down but the Nova's will go up....

Is there a good/reliable place to find deals like this?

Man...you guys are persuasive! LOL!

Well... as for a ls1 powered nova I would say the value would either stay about the same or depreciate, as the swaps become more common more hit the used market and the bling factor of the swap goes away.

For instance try finding a lt1 powered 69 camaro and one with a ls1 BIIIIG difference.


Though my big question is why do you need an injected motor, having done a ls1 swap i can say its not easy, and i have all the off the shelf first gen camaro parts. If you are just gonna drive it on the weekends or whatever stay carbureted, it will save you a huge ammount of time and money.

Which ever way you go have fun with it and dont worry about this part so much if you dont even have the car, for 35k you can build a very decent car if you are doing most of the labor. :thumbsup:

or you can stuff 35k into body and chassis and everthing else and get a cheaper motor(like firstgens mentioned above) for now and then save up some cash and then get the motor you really want

But the point is that they're not making any more '66 Novas, and if it's a nice car then you shouldn't have any worries

That figure is not too bad. We are doing some LSX swaps currently that include all the cooling, fuel, wiring, and exhaust systems, in addition to the install of the accessories and dress up items. To do the swap with all the bling aftermarket stuff is very costly, vs doing all the work and modifying used items to make the swap work. I think it can be done for under $11K including engine and trans, but you have to make and modify everything yourself, and you can rarely buy new parts and stay under budget.

Tyler

Poorman you might want to get a quote from Don Lee Auto Service in Rancho Cucamonga. I was just there picking up my nova about 45 minuites ago. They put on my global west shackle kit and DSE 3" leafs. They do alot of great custom mechanical work such as ls1 swaps, rear end work, and Stearing conversions. I usually do my own work, but every once in a while there is something I just dont have the space to do. Phone # is 909-989-1573. I remember when I was a kid they were building a corvair with a 327 in the back seat. Today they were working on a couple of classic vettes and building a grand national engine!! www.donleeauto.com
David

Send me an email and I will see what can be done.. good deals are never easily found. Often you trade cash for speed.. the more you spend the faster you get what you want.

However the deals are out there and you live in a great area to find them. My example was with a 4L60e trans. A T56 will cost more. I still believe you can get the motor and trans for $5k fairly easily. And I would hazzard to guess $12k for the parts and install unless you want exotic components. $12k is better than $20k..

I would have to noodle out what you want exactly.. If you try you would be amazed what you can do on a tight budget.. if you try :)

Funny.. that's were I was going to send him :) ... it's the best shop in SoCal for anything LS1 related.

If you look on thier site you will see my '69.. Tim and myself will stabbing the LS2 into Penny as well.

Tyler is right.. You can't have champagne tastes and expect to stay on a beer budget. The key is in working with what you have. You can spend $2500 on a front pully system or you can make an old f-body drive system look pretty damn good with some sweat and powder paint.

You can modify the stock tank or have a custom one made. It's all about choices and all the little "additions" to a project can really add up.

If I didn't have Don Lee Auto so nearby then the only other place I would reccomend would be ATS since I know they are very competent and competent is not an easy thing to find these days.

I was trying to keep this under my belt (but I've had a few beers now so I'm slightly less sublte)...that's exactly where the 20K quote came from. 5K labor and 15K in parts and such (to complete the drivetrain).

Anyway, Steven an email is on the way...

However...I've thought long and hard about this dilemma. As I am trying to build a "keeper daily driver" (meaning a car to keep and drive for well over 20 years--should I live that long) it occured to me that it would be silly for me to dedicate a car (physically and monetarily) to LS1/LS2 technology that will, in all likeihood, be obsolete in 5 years from now (when I will probably want/need a new drivetrain). I can easily install a 350 Ram Jet for far less money and the car won't be dedicated to LSx wiring, fuel lines etc etc.

I am NOT knocking you LSx guys (This is not an anti LSx manifesto). LSx is way better in most (probably all) regards...just not for my situation. At least that's my logic for now...I'm still quite green and more research may lead me to change my mind within the next few minutes. So who knows.

Wife is calling me to bed...so Steven, expect that email tomorrow. :unibrow:

Hey Poorman. I wanted to put my 2 cents in. If I had a certain amount of money and was doing what you are doing, I would go around and find a car that is already done or really close to being done, but the owner can't finish the project type of deal. If you think you have a budget around 35k and want to do a bunch of mods, I would seriously start looking for deals left and right. This is what I should have done. 35k sounds like a lot, but it goes pretty quickly in parts, and this does not include labor. I went in thinking I was going to spend 20k on this build, and then I wanted this, and or needed this, and it snowballed to well north of 100k. Since you don't have a car yet, look for one that best suits your needs and go from there.

Thats cool Steve. I hadn't looked at Don Lees website until today. Cool pics of your 69.

Sound advice for sure. It's not going to be easy to find a car that's already built to my standards/liking. I came accross a guy who offered up a 63 Nova that had the suspension all set up...I know I'm being picky here, but I'd prefer a 66-67 and I didn't really like the paint color he had chosen.

Plenty more research, car shows and such lie in my future!

Thanks to all for you input and help. It's nice to have some guidance from those who have already done this.

Yeah, Steve's car is killer.

I wish we had more pics of forum bro cars on this site...and maybe have their user name listed too so we know who they are.

[QUOTE=ilovefirstgens]Though my big question is why do you need an injected motor, having done a ls1 swap i can say its not easy, and i have all the off the shelf first gen camaro parts. If you are just gonna drive it on the weekends or whatever stay carbureted, it will save you a huge ammount of time and money.QUOTE]

I want a fuelie for a couple reasons. The goal of this car is to build a daily driver and have it perform like (or better than) a modern performance vehicle would. This will be my one and only car so I'm after that fuelie snappy throttle response, better gas mileage, reliability etc.

But I think the solution that works best for me comes in the form of the 350 Ram Jet.

Ram Jet would save you alot of money and is still a very cool engine. It would leave alot of your budget for suspension and other upgrades.

Important update..

I went over to Don Lees today and talked with Tim.. mostly to bust his chops for quoting $20k .. lol

Tim said that he told you $5k for labor and the total would most likely be aroud $15k.. you must of thought he meant $15k PLUS the $5k.. or $20k

So to be clear his quote was $15k complete with fuel system and all the goodies.. Now if you go adding exotic parts and such that price would change (higher) and if you shopped hard that price could be less. $5k labor is a good price.

Just thought you would want to know that the $20k number was incorrect :)

Oh, never did get an email from ya.. also, Tim said a RamJet install would be a snap but you might end up with hood clearance issues. (he had a 66 Nova)

Better drivability.. better potential for power.. better fuel economy :)

Nothing wrong with carbs though.. just hard to back once you go EFI.. there's something nice about turning the key and having it fire right up and the fact that the computer adjusts to different conditions (like driving to a higher or lower altitude)

Thanks.. We thought it might help people.. plus I have a ton on my website..

That's a real good price.

Ohhhhhhh...that makes sense. His exact words were "about 15K sunk into the engine"...so he must have meant 15K to complete the project. I took is as 15K for all the parts needed for the engine, then 5K labor. Thanks for the clarification.

I still haven't goeen around to that email...I have a nasty schedule and I get home pretty late (and I stopped at a car show to scope for Novas on the way home). And I can't send emails from work--I can post here for some reason. But I think I'm going to pass on the LS1/LS2 route anyway. For my purposes I think the 350 Ram Jet will be much more cost effective. EFI on a beer budget. :thumbsup: