1969 Camaro Project questions
 

Hey there! I am new around here, and in the process if trying to lay the ground work and know what to expect on going pro-touring with my 69 Camaro. Hopefully this is the correct forum to post these questions.

I have researched a ton, gotten together a parts list, and talked with a couple of shops. I have pretty well settled on one as they have been extremely responsive and easy to deal with when asking questions, etc.

The only problem I am running into is on the quote they gave an estimated number of labor hours that seems extremely high. I just cannot for the life of me figure out where the number of hours is coming from. I know good work takes time, but this seems insane.

So, before I say what they estimated (based on another build they say they did that ended up similarly, except it was a convertible and mine is a coupe) I am curious what everyone here thinks.

So as far as the build goes, the car is already painted, body and car is in excellent shape so none of that will need to be done. Photos have been sent to the builder and this is confirmed to be satisfactory to him. Basically what I am wanting done is as follows, which is all fairly standard for a top notch PT build:

LS7/T56 magnum swap and assorted wiring involved and tunnel work, among other things involved (radiator, driveshaft, headers, etc)
DSE front subframe
DSE body mounts
DSE Mini tub
DSE QUADRAlink
DSE anti-roll bar
DSE subframe connectors
DSE 9"
DSE gas tank
DSE dash w/classic instruments gauges
DSE wiper motor
DSE firewall fill plate w/firewall painted
Vintage Air
DSE Roll cage
DSE Master cylinder/brake booster
Baer 6P brakes front and rear
bolt on wheels/tires I will supply otherwise as they are not a dealer for what I am wanting
Ididit column
Stainless exhaust

I know the parts are going to be expensive, but the labor range quoted is almost as much/more than the parts cost. I have talked to DSE themselves, but their labor rate/hr is much higher and they couldn't take the car for almost a year anyway. This shop is just as reputable, much lower labor rate, and can take the car the end of May.

I'm not looking to be talked into Ridetech or Speedtech or any other components as at this point I am pretty set and have a game plan.

I am attaching a good picture of the car as it sits now for reference. Thank you all for your time and help! Looking forward to seeing what you think!

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...psvibkg4xs.jpg

Subframes are easy to swap out. 3.5 hours. Depends on what needs to be installed onto it also. Steering box, steering linkages, engine mounts, trans mounts. Add accordingly.

Count on a mini tub installation taking about forty hours. It's hard for me to imagine how long it would take when trying to preserve the outside paint. There's special workings to not get weld spatter or heat onto the outside panels. Let alone be cutting, grinding and shaping neat them.

Far subframe connectors require the entire interior to be removed. Part of it will be done for the tuba but it does take time to remove front and rear seats, seat belts, carpet, wiring, etc. then time to cut the floor pan (and measuring) and weld them in. I'd say it would take me 6 hours to be realistic.

Gas tanks are easy. Half hour. Unless you have a bolt lockup. Then it could be an hour or two. Let's half half an hour. But there's also fuel lines. Feed, return from regulator, filter, and running it up the engine. Also removing the former lines that fed it and the charcoal canister line if it was present. Three hours. Maybe four now.

Dash. They install quick. Wiring, not so much. At least four hours. You're talking about running new fuel gauge sender wires, new VSS wires since they didn't come in a 69, and sender wires for engine vitals. Oh yeah. And removing the speedo cable.

Wiper motor is no problem. Wiring is not the same, as it adds more speeds and has a different switch. An hour.

Firewall plate? You must remove the entire front clip to do this. At least on gender and inner fender. It took me almost ten hours to get the front clip off, surface prepped, straight and welded. The welds must be done in stitches, not in one single pass--so as not to warp the panel.. Then I had to body work the welds so it looked like it belonged and paint the firewall. I think my paint guy had another twenty five hours in that.

Vintage air takes me around six to eight hours depending on how disassembled the car is and how complicated it is to crimp and run the hoses.

Roll cage. I don't know. I haven't had to do one in a 69. Maybe 5 if it was all bolt in.

Brakes could easily be twelve or fourteen hours if you count the time it takes to hang them on all four corners, hang the master and run new lines front to rear. Plus bleeding them. Bear isn't as bad as wilwood to bleed, but it's at least a half an hour. I usually have to spend an hour to get it right.

Column is two and a half hours.

Wiring the LS7 could take ten hours of you want to beautify the harness. Probably more. You're talking about adding wires for electric fans, speedometer, reverse lights, oxygen sensors, MAF, and gauges to the engine.

Plus dressing the engine. The accessory drive kit to work with Vintage air takes a couple hours to assemble. It alway takes me at least six hours to tune a car. Maybe less if it was just headers. But installing the oil pan, headers harness all takes time.

Alignment, too. The new suspension won't be set up out of the box. There's another hour.
Exhaust front to rear is a couple hours. Plus reassembly of interior and verifying fender figment to hood, to door, to header panel and valance are time consuming.

I'd say 150 hours could get filled up darn quick.

I billed a 68 at 88 hours once and probably only charged for half of what I did. I probably realistically spent about 240 hours on the car. Plus research time and "learning" time--time I spent going slow so I could understand. I can't charge two hours for a one hour job if it's my fault I'm going slow. At least, not in my mind.

You can do all that work in just about 4 weeks, working 40 hours per week? Let me know when you can start and I will send you as many cars as you can handle.

It takes way more time then you think. Its pretty common to see the labor equal the parts total in most any project. The custom top notch cars begin to increase the labor total from there. The 50-50 split with labor and parts is pretty entry level.

I was just about to say the same thing, but adding that only applies to larger projects, not just installing a set of mini-tubs before we get a stupid comment and someone wants a set of tubs installed for $400.

Building cars - or highly modifying them - and trying to get a firm bid is a rats nest of what if's - as long as we're here's - and Wow! I didn't know they just painted over rust.

I don't care who bids the job - or how close you think you're going to stick to your plan - it won't happen. Plan on that - and you'll have a good plan.

The fact that your car is painted - ADDS to the cost, not subtracts. Now everything has to be protected - and work slows to be considerate of the paint and bodywork.

NEVER confuse labor rate - and time. This is a fools way to go about a project. It's about efficiency. A guy that charges $45 an hour - but takes 3 hours to do a one hour job is more expensive than the guy that charges $105 an hour and does the job in one hour.

A shop that does the car you have - over and over - and knows where to source all the parts - knows how to anticipate the work - has done it a zillion times - CAN BE more efficient. I say "can be" because it depends on whether they pass along the savings.

And then there's the owner.... Who, once he sees other cars with bigger tires and other "stuff".... decides to change this or that and thinks it's SIMPLE and No Biggie. HA! Good luck with that.

Can you write a $100,000 check the day you drop the car off at the shop? If not - don't start.

I'm saying the project as a whole. It really starts at some where around a 50/50 split and goes up from there.

I just noticed that you plan to install an "Idiot Column"..... PERFECT! LOL


Okay - being totally serious here. You've got all manor of good parts and an exceptional motor choice. You're parts list and list of work is well short on many items that WILL add costs - and shouldn't be underestimated. For instance - there's no mention of the new rear end that will be required. Either your 12 bolt will need narrowing - or you'll be buying the standard new Ford 9" - narrowed.

People ALWAYS underestimate the amount of little things... Such as - once you pull the fenders and front end off the car - and really take a look at just how FUGLY the firewall is on these cars... you'll want to smooth that (already in your bid). Then once that's smoothed - the inner fenders look FUGLY - so you'll have those smoothed and painted (not mentioned). Then the hinges are crap - so you'll need Ring Brothers... And when you change out the tranny for a more modern version (such as your already listed T56) - you'll find your console doesn't work anymore...

Now - you'll also get up under the dash and (maybe) find that you have 47 year old wiring... and you're trying to find a home for a couple ECU's and their associated relays etc.... so plan to do a full wiring upgrade. Not to mention the addition of your Vintage Air.... that means the entire dash is already out of the car - so might as well clean everything up. And you'll also find that your "AstoVents" don't seal outside air anymore - so those have to be fixed - or better yet, eliminated.

Do you want your "Stainless exhaust" TIG welded or just butchered with a MIG machine? Do you want them to go up over the axle? Clear that old gas tank? Nope - you need a new gas tank with the proper pumps and billet vents...

I'm not trying to be negative here at all.... I'm being REALISTIC. You're already complaining about the proposed bid. That tells me you're not educated on what you're getting in to. I'm just trying to give you a realistic "heads up".

Here you go based on doing several 69s PT cars.. Having the car painted already will add additional time. Hours included removing the original parts. These estimated hours may or not be what a shop charges and depends on how many guys they have working on your car.


LS7/T56 magnum swap and assorted wiring involved and tunnel work, among other things involved (radiator, driveshaft, headers, etc) 24 hours
DSE front subframe 12 hours
DSE body mounts 2 hours
DSE Mini tub 40 hours
DSE QUADRAlink 40 hours
DSE anti-roll bar 2 hour
DSE subframe connectors inc in quadralink
DSE 9" 8 hours
DSE gas tank 2 hours
DSE dash w/classic instruments gauges 8 hours with wiring
DSE wiper motor 2 hours
DSE firewall fill plate w/firewall painted 10-12 hours
Vintage Air 12 hours
DSE Roll cage 24 hours
DSE Master cylinder/brake booster2 hours
Baer 6P brakes front and rear8 hours
bolt on wheels/tires I will supply otherwise as they are not a dealer for what I am wanting
Idiot column 2 hours but I would use a GM Tilt instead
Stainless exhaust $2000

Ok that comes to 135 hours not including all the little stuff in between like running brake lines, fuel lines, put the car back together like the front clip, grill bumpers, interior and on and on.

So now take the 160 hours and double it to 320 hours and you'll be close.

Plus you've not considered the installation and subsequent removal for paint/powder coating and reinstallation of a lot of the components

My last car I bought as a painted roller with the DSE quadralink, F9, tubs and roll bar already installed and the firewall smoothed. I spent 400-500 hours finishing the car.

All in I would plan on $40K-$50K for the complete job plus parts

First off, thanks for the responses! They have helped so far, and hopefully I can quantify my questions a little more and help narrow some things down!

Some excellent advice being given in here. Big items, while the bulk of the expense, can be surpassed individually by the small add on stuff, and it adds up fast.

I've been building my car for 5 years and it's been off and on in shops. I'm completing the car myself now and it seems there's always another 500-1000 to spend here and there. Hell my catch can solution for my motor is looking like it's rounding the corner for $500 and that's just a catch can!

As said, the further you dig into it, the more stuff you'll find that you want to change or you'll want to modify since you're there, and it all adds up in the end. Add in the nice car to start and as mentioned, working around those painted panels will cause more time to be spent being more careful!

I wish you luck, but expect the unexpected in cost...

I think I was told on here, take your original budget and triple it and it will be close.

I'm sorry not trying to be rude. Your dreaming with these times.

Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk

So do you have a time estimation to contribute? Not trying to be rude either, I was just always taught to offer an alternative answer if disputing something.

I don't mean to be vague here either, I will tell everyone how many hours I have been quoted, I just want to get an idea so my answer influence anyone.

I feel like I should leave this thread alone, but I can tell you there is no way anyone will be happy with the job your asking to be done at 500 hours.

The actual scoop of labor your inquiring about is vastly undersold with the punch list you have.

Example 24 hours to install an LS7 with t56 is an absolute joke. Not possible.

I don't want you to get tricked or fooled into thinking this is easier then some people in this thread are trying to under sell it. Greg is pretty close to right on his 100k comment.

I would encourage you to take your punch list and truly break it down to all the steps you know about. It doesnt matter if you know what your doing. Take your best guess. Just that first step is really 2 pages long. if you break it down. Make a step by step list of the entire job and you will start to grasp what is really going on. Don't worry about custom options, AN hoses, mil spec connectors, relocated coils, super bad ass air intake.

Actual disassembly of car
Assembly of engine in sub
All plumbing
Radiator
dry sump - include mounting dry sump tank and breather
fuel system
air intake
engine breather system
power steering hoses
AC hose plumbing
routing engine wiring
fabrication for trans tunnel
install engine drive system
......


I don't have the time to go on and on. Just that first step could be a few weeks. Easy.

You can definitely install an LS and T56 in 24 hours. However as stated you can easily spend triple that or more in wiring, mounting the ECM and fuse box, cold air, tunnel mod for the T56 ( I use the Speedtech tunnel cover and you can spend a full day getting finished up from start to finish) and figuring out radiator hoses and so on.

As I posted I spent 400-500 hours on my car after the DSE quadralink, minis, rear end, roll bar and the firewall was smoothed.

That's the reason for a very detailed all inclusive contract with the shop. If you agree to an hourly rate based on an estimate you'll end up getting hosed big time.:whenitsdone:

Did I miss something that said, he didn't want the LS7-T56 combo to run when complete?

OK, you seem knowledgable, so are you willing for offer an estimated range that you feel is an appropriate number or are you only wanting to dispute what everyone else is saying without offering your own advice?

I posted this because I genuinely want to know, not to start an argument or a debate.

I believe we are saying the same thing just a different way.:G-Dub:

YOU must be talking about disassembling the car, because exhaust takes slightly longer than 2 hours??? what are you talking about??

12 hours to install a complete brake system including ne lines not a chance.

I AM WITH RODGER when can you start!!! in our experience Rodger and Mike are RIGHT on at the 1:1 parts to labor cost (on a full build ) I would even starch it to 1.15 parts to 1 labor. when you include paint we just did a 67 minor body mods ZL1 hood insert in a factory cowl hood the car had NO RUST painted
black and color sanded with the sheet metal work it was 28,000.00 took 8 weeks of labor.
Greg is also correct 100,000 is a good starting point for a full redo. I have a 69 here that will probably end up for sale as it IS THIS EXAMPLE CUSTOMER HAD grand IDEAS and not enough money.

This industry is not like automotive repair. There is not one way to install those parts. So pitting one person's work against another bid is not fair or logical. We do everything on a time and materials basis. We do mostly repeat work for the same few guys who keep us loaded up with work. They don't come to my shop because we are cheap. They come here because they trust us, First and foremost. They come here because of what we are capable of. They come here because we try to do our absolute best. Are we cheap? Nope.

You have to decide the level you want. Do you just want those parts installed as they came from the supplier? Or do you want to paint this and coat that and make it yours? Do you want some one to just assemble your parts or do you want some one to build you a nice car? Those may sound like the same thing but they are not.

I usually skip these threads as it turns into an internet message board ego fest of who can do it better for less and the guys who build these cars charge way to much. And some guy in his garage with a pair of side cutters and auto zone battery cables can do the same install as DSE for 10% of the cost. Bullcrap. You get what you pay for.

If you looking for me to give a number, stop reading now and go take your list of really nice parts to the lowest bidder and ride his ass that it takes too long and costs way more then you thought. I hate to say it, but I'm beginning to think people just need to learn the hard way. I think that mentality is bad for the industry, but there is no way to explain to some one how much work it really takes to do some thing nice.

Building cars is like buying a steak dinner. You can go to Sizzler and get a New York Strip with a Salad for what 9.99?

You can go to the Outback and get something similar for 17.99

You can go to Ruth Chris and get just the steak for 45 bucks and still need the side and the salad.

If you can't taste the difference in a 60 dollar dinner go to Sizzler. If you think Sizzler is like jerky you might pay more for the better meal. Some people only want Ruth Chris steakhouse and are willing to pay for it. Some people go to an even better steak.

Can you install and LS7 and T56 in 24 hours? I'm sure some one can. Will it look and taste like a dinner at Sizzler? I guarantee. Will you have issues? I'm positive. Can you buy dinner at Sizzler cheaper then you can buy a quality piece of meat at the store?

So why would you want to buy the best parts you can and have them installed by the cheapest bidder. I'm guessing DSE would get 200k for the job you asking about. No one is going to tell you that on the phone.

If you keep it simple you probably have 60k in parts. In a 1:1 ratio that's 120k for what your asking?

You would be money ahead to just buy the car your asking to build. Someone has done this and is willing to sell it for the cost of parts some where. I'm sure.

Rodger, Blake: I admit that the numbers are low. There are no doubt ancillary items that tag along. I usually like to redo the engine harness myself. That alone usually takes 16 hours to lay, sheath and cut to length/recrimp the ends.

Original Poster: I think that if you want it perfect, it's a billable hours deal. But I'm think I was more like Todd's answer in that this would get it set on the ground. It no doubt needs probably another two and a half weeks of work for rear end set up/driveshaft angles, underbody coatings or prep/paint, front end wiring, dash wiring, cage prep and paint, blah blah blah. Maybe more than two and a half weeks. I've never gotten a build of that scope done sooner than six months.

And I also tend to give stuff away. I guess I don't FEEL like it should take 32 hours to fit front sheet metal.. So I billed him 10.. Even though I really did work at it for 32 hours--straight. Perhaps that's why I closed. :EmoteClueless: :hairpullout:
But I do work with a hustle, and did close my shop. Maybe I'll apply for work at Ironworks and Speedtech!! Well, now that I've kicked myself out the door, maybe not.. :underchair:

Yeap - it shouldn't take 32 hours until it really does.

Chip Foose can build cars on TV in a week right?

Freakin-A, he can!!! Ass Monkey can, too!

Tv shows make it really hard to build cars for people. A runner driver that looks like it drove out of the factory is not that hard to put together, I guess. But I never want it to look like the factory. I want it to have hidden wires. I want it to have the hose clamps hidden. I want it to have the coolant and a/c hoses tucked. I want the extra stuff removed. I want the firewall plate to have the same curves as the factory stamps do. And I want my customers to want the same thing. The Fairway 55 and fairway 70 aren't 150 hour cars.. That's for sure.


I feel like an ass lookin back over some of the times I put up. Sorry guys. I guess I should keep my fingers off the keyboard after midnight.

I have personally done virtually everything on your list and while I'm not an overly experienced mechanic/shop owner, I can that that list is quite extensive and will take several months at best. I gave myself a year to do all of those things and I had all the parts ready for me!

Even if you had one dedicated tech on it for 40hrs a week (which they won't) it will be 3-4 months easily.

Example... Mini tubs look sooooo easy right? Minimum 40hrs of labor for a competent tech, longer if they do it 'nice'.

Let's not forget that once everything is nicely finished, guess what? Add another 20+ hours into making sure everything actually works. It just doesn't plug-in and bingo-bango, magic! The engine will need tuning, AC will need to be charged and tested, suspension will need adjusting and fine tuning, then suddenly someone will notice that the dome light doesn't work... Now, that can be a 4-5 hour job if a wiring problem occurs and you need to remove pieces.

This isn't a big jigsaw puzzle that neatly fits together and you're done. Just because the description says it will fit a Camaro, doesn't mean it will right out of the box. I can't tell you how many hours I've had to modify parts to get them to fit just right. Is that a bad design? Hell no! That's the world of custom cars. That's hot rodding... and time.

I've been around long enough in the custom car world to know that whatever estimate you get... Instantly double it for time and cost. That's just how it goes.

1 Most good shops are labor X hours + materials

2 No Reputable Shop has that short of a wait for a job of this size.

3 Do more homework on shops. There is a massive difference between quality and zip screws and duct tape.


Roger, Greg and Blake thanks for the good advice.

What shop is it?

I think there is a lot of good advice here already but one thing seems to be missing.

No matter who is quoting you what, You should ask for a list of their previous customers and talk to those people directly. The price of parts and labor is just a part of your actual customer experience.

The proof of what kind of shop you are talking to is probably best learned by talking to their customers. Of course, you could argue they will only provide you with a list of satisfied customers but hey, that is what you hope to be too, right?

Talk to those previous customers to see what led to their happiness and then honestly ask yourself if you are that kind of customer or not.

If it is one of the better known shops it shouldn't be hard to find some of their previous customers on your own.

The other thing I would investigate is whether or not the actual people who built the cars for the customers you talk to are still at the shop or not. Some shops are constantly replacing their workers and others have a very stable workforce. It would be hard to be assured of a similar positive experience if your work will actually be done by different people.

First of all, I HATE threads like this one....gives our hobby a bad taste in people's mouth when they realize what this actually costs, and how long it takes.
There are a zillion shops out there that will tell you what you want to hear to get you in the door. I read a lot of threads/articles about the guy who had big dreams of owning a "top notch" pro touring build. He did a LITTLE research of shops in his area, and picked one. Loaded up his car and dropped it off at the shop. The shop owner promised him a totally undoable time line, while at the same time received a large down payment from the car owner. Days turn into weeks, weeks turn into months, you get the picture, and very little is happening to the vehicle. Car owner gets frustrated, and demands results. Shop moves car into staging area and stuff happens, but it's not fast enough. Shop owner blames vendors, and the next post, or part of the article tells how the angry car owner pulled his project that is now partially disassembled out, and didn't get the earnest money back. The entire process gave the car owner a bad taste of our hobby, and it all goes up for sale. DONT BE THAT GUY!
Don't settle for a shop that promises to get you in line next, at a half price rate. If they can do that, then you don't want them ANYWHERE NEAR your car.
To state that the shop your looking at "is just as reputable as DSE" is a big statement. They do exist, but they also are all backed up for a year, and for a good reason.
Your willing to spend $50k on parts, you better be willing to spend $50k on labor. It's just the way it is. And if it takes the shop a year, so be it.
This site alone contains many builds that costed 6 digits to build.

:popcorn2:


OP,
Honestly, I would start with your budget then see what can be done for that. If you are building over your means you will waste money on storage fees and money in the long run.

Shops that don't charge enough don't last. I know this first hand.

This type of work requires time. Anyone can slap an engine/trans in and call it a day. It has to be done correctly and that takes time.

I have been working with a few shop getting work done and you can tell which ones are experienced or not. The worst is getting into a shop that quotes low and then tries to come back later when they are over their heads asking for more money. Look at what they have in the shop and what has left the shop. A reputable shop should have a good portfolio on hand or on line.

good luck

You will be north of 300 after we talk about plumbing and full vehicle wiring.

I will pay you flat rate and probably double what you charged that guy lol
come on down

700-1000 hours for everything including fabrication, paint, and body. If you're doing a high end really detailed show quality car. If several people are working on it at once, then divide the hour total by the number of people. You'll be close.


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Poster said he is keeping the paint on it now.

What kind of times are you seeing from the shop that can start in May?

You didn't read anything did you?

LET ME RESTATE- no body paint beyond necessary for suspension and firewall work and I am not looking for a SEMA car. I want a versatile street car that can outperform most modern cars on the street or the track should I find an opportunity to track it. I am also looking to drive it to events, the power tour, etc and not load it in a trailer and haul it to a show.

Estimation based on another build they did, where they did not do the paint (but did do some body mods and it was a convertible so they did some work on the top) was 668 hours. He felt it would be less due to no convertible top or body work at all other than the firewall, mini-tubs, and suspension, but not much.

My thought was that it was closer to 300-350 hours worth of work. The real number will likely lie somewhere between my number and his, I just didn't know how much more or less. That's why I came here.

Rebelceb, are you on the east coast? Just wondering due to shop hourly rates being so different from East coast to West coast.
Looking forward to seeing your car finished. It will be a beast!

Not sure I qualify as the East Coast. I'm in MS, so I guess that qualifies as the Gulf Coast and east of the MS River. The shop I have been talking to is in Tennessee, though. Most other shops I have talked to are in the $90-$95/hr range.

Wow.... Please don't start this project. Just drive the car as is and enjoy it.

https://lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=50766
Just an example, asking $110k with well over $185k into the build......

My suggestion, enjoy the restored 69 you've got while you look for the finished, or mostly finished car that's in your head. I know it's not what you were originally asking but it's worth looking into.
Clearly you're wanting to enjoy the finished product, why deal with the hassle of a long term build?

Good luck with it.
:thumbsup:



p.s. Don't do it

Ryan gets excited jumps from the couch and makes a HUGE bowl of popcorn a few beers and a pillow ...might have to nap....slides back onto the couch and opens his beer . Grabs a handful of popcorn and silently watches what seems to be a sh#t storm starting

You have no idea how much knowledge is on this website. That's why we're trying to help you. We've been there and done that. Some of us dozens of times. You asked a very good question - stated the scope of work - and you've gotten very good responses. They are honest, unbiased, and come from experienced people in the business, or in the hobby for many years. We can argue about who what when and how much over and over... but what YOU need to take away from the discussion is - whatever you think you want this job to cost - it's going to cost way more. Just be prepared for that and you'll be fine. If you're not prepared or willing to do whatever it takes/costs... then just don't start the project because you will be disappointed. This hobby should be called "can of worms" because that's what it is. Every builder on here will tell you that.

Your Camaro looks great as is... and it may be the most solid 47 year old Camaro on the planet - but we're trying to warn you of the pitfalls of what we've all experienced. That's the best we can do.

Stick around - go thru the builds here - just start in the Projects section. Sort that section by "views"... start with page one of any of the projects you pick and go thru the thread. You'll see dozens of perfectly good cars start off with simple (some not so simple) "mods"... Look and see how many truly nice looking cars get started and then the "discovery period" and the "oh wow" unfolds as the owner finds out his pretty paint is covering over some pretty nasty 47 year old ugliness... See how weeks or months turns into YEARS... see how simple turns into SEMA.... See how perfect laser straight bondo is hiding sink holes of time and money. Then when YOU are ready - take yours to the shop. It's exciting - it's fun - it's satisfying - it's camaraderie - it can be lasting friendships... It's not for the light of wallet - the faint of heart - the married with children - or the guy that thinks it's easy and cheap.