Are ALL GM Engines ok for all GM Model Cars?

[tyoneal]

To All:

Hello again.

A while back we discussed Hybrid Cars. Those defined as car's who were running a different engine than that of the body of the car. Back a number of years ago there were many brands of cars within a larger company, (General Motors) that produced their own engines, (The Buick 455 was different than the Pontiac 455, which was also different that the OLDS 455 and so on) and before that, the individuals companies even built their own, "Coach's", to go along with their own engines. Now through cost cutting and other goals we use the Alphabet bodies/platforms we have today.

Examples:

A 69 Camaro with a 351 Cleveland running in it.

or

A Mustang with a Toyota Engine.

I think this is understandable enough, and in many purist circles, despite whether or not the combination worked, these combinations used in Hot Rods were often seen as a , "Bastards","Hybrids", "Freaks" etc., etc.

Now we are in a time where the big three, GM, Ford, and Toyota each represent many different name brands.

GM- Buick, Olds, Pontiac, Chevy, Cadillac, Holden etc.
Ford: Lincoln, Mercury, (Along with several European Brands)
Toyota, Honda and varies other companies acquiring or divesting of Rolls Royce here, Mercedes Benz, and on and on and on.

Today the hot set up for GM PT cars is to have a LSx power plant in it. Well the LS family of engines is used throughout the General Motors product lines no matter what badge they wear on the outside. Does a Pontiac LS2 put into a Camaro become strange, when a Corvette LS2 into a Camaro is not?

Is it now time to accept that the Engine Brand and the Car Brand don't necessarily have to be of the same maker to have a perfectly normal Hot Rod, because performance is what is most important now, right?

This being said, one of the main tenants of, "Pro Touring", is to take Modern Technology and use it to bring the older cars up to and usually beyond the performance of the newest cars on the street.

This taken to a further step would encourage people to investigate the total range of Modern Technology, in an effort to push these limits even further.
Lucky for us we now have CF parts at our disposal as well as very advanced computing software, easily maintained power adders, (<--- Sounds like a snake), and so on.

From my understanding of, "Pro Touring", it is a goal to push for ever better performance out of our cars.

Specifically, the engines we have can put out incredible HP for the Street way out past 1200 HP, and still for the most part be using pump gas.

The Brakes one can put on their car are only limited by their wallet. Other than that the best in the world are at our disposal.

Tires Technology is great. (Period) Suspension Technology and materials available for the chassis are once again only limited to ones wallet.

These tools being available make the main thing standing in the way of our Cars performance is weight.

CF, and Chrome moly help in this regard, but we need to do two things, lessen the weight and reposition the weight within the car.

Many people do this by using an aluminum block for less weight and moving it back further into the firewall 3 to 12 inches which starts to require a heck of a lot of extra fabrication.

I know I have touched on this somewhat before, but I wanted to bounce this, "New" discovery off you all and get your opinions on it.

The biggest usable PT engine will probably never have more than 750-800 HP at the flywheel, and most of that will never be used. That being said, why not search for an engine that can dependably create that amount of power and no more.

The LSx Technology can do 700+ N/A or 2000Hp Boosted.

Here is what I have found. (Many of you may already be familiar with it?)


It is a 3.8-4.6 Liter TurboCharged V6. It can make 800HP up to 1700.
It weighs less than 300 pounds w/o turbo's.

It could be set back 3 inches into you firewall and without the front two cylinders greatly improve your front to back weight ratio, not to mention 100-250 lighter than out normally used engines. Here are the links for the block and heads within the book are the rest of the parts used to build it. It is based on the Buick Grand National 231 ci Turbo Charged Engine. There are many parts being made for them, it is a proven design and for the same HP level it is no more $$$ than a built LS2 or LS7 of the same power. (This is based on the numbers I have so far)

Is this close to being the Ultimate Pro Touring Engine?

The Block (page 22)

http://www.taperformance.com/PAGES%20PDF/2008A_WEB.pdf

The Heads (page 18)

http://www.taperformance.com/PAGES%20PDF/2008A_WEB.pdf

Engine would cost 15-20k decked out. Here is the whole product line:

http://www.taperformance.com

Anyway, given the information at the top, would this not be a viable option?

Here is the engine running in a IRL Style Car:

http://www.taperformance.com/gary_west.htm

I welcome your thoughts.

Thanks,

Ty

[andrewmp6]

The 3.8 is a nice engine they can be a power house built right just look at how many grand national can carry the front end drag racing.As far as a engine swap if the engine your using better have more hp and torque then whats in there.Gm is good at using one engine in a lot of cars look at the old 2.8/3.1 or the 3.8 used fwd and rwd in pretty much everything they offer at one point.

[DDY RCKT]

While logic says you may be on to something, as humans we're not driven by logic. There's a lot to be said about the feeling you get from hearing a big cube V8 run and feeling the viscious torque they provide.

I'd not be opposed to putting one of these in the Camaro project, since it was a V6 car to begin with I think. But then there's the cost to performance ration. I can make 500-600 NA HP in an LS engine a lot cheaper than $15K.

[tyoneal]

Originally Posted by DDY RCKT

While logic says you may be on to something, as humans we're not driven by logic. There's a lot to be said about the feeling you get from hearing a big cube V8 run and feeling the viscious torque they provide.

I'd not be opposed to putting one of these in the Camaro project, since it was a V6 car to begin with I think. But then there's the cost to performance ration. I can make 500-600 NA HP in an LS engine a lot cheaper than $15K.

==========================
Very True, however once you cross the threshold into a Blown application, the cost can quickly reach $15k and well beyond. At the $15-18k mark you can be in the 800-1200 hp range. The V8's will still cost the same of not more, and you would receive the benefit of better weight distribution and weight savings.

Wouldn't that be a better performance solution for a true Pro Touring car? As far as the Vicious Torque of a V8, I'm fairly sure that a properly built Turbo V6 would also give you that seat of the pants power. The Front Wheels in the Air of a not so light Regal Tell me anyway that there is ample power on hand for a fast start. In any event, Isn't Pro Touring more of a handling thing than a Drag thing?

Lighter= Faster
Lighter= Better Lateral Acceleration potential
Lighter= Better Braking potential

Lightness is a Cornerstone of good Pro Touring Performance.

Is this wrong?

I appreciate your thoughts.

Best regards,

Ty

BTW: on a separate note (no pun intended), Is the size of the Piston what determines the pitch of the exhaust sound? (Same mufflers being used)

Example V8's usually have a deeper sound than a V4 or V6, however a V2 Harley has a very deep sound.

If the , "Size Matters", of the piston, where is the transition point between the two?

The new Mustangs I think run a 4.6 liter V8 which have a good sound (Deep). Shouldn't the 4.6 liter V6 have a deeper sound?

I'm interested in all the questions in this posting. Please add whatever you can to any of these questions?

Thanks,
Again,

Ty

[Nate_ERC]

You have to remember that we are discussing road cars here. The V6 turbo would be great if you're driving flat-out, but IMO not so great for most of our applications. If I was building the "ultimate" 3500+lbs car, I would typically rather have the torque and throttle response advantage of the V8.

Also you have to consider that after you plumb and cool the turbos (especially for a 600hp application), you will probably negate any potential weight distribution improvements. LSx's are so cheap, and so easy to build, that I really feel that they are a no-brainier. It's not like the LSx is an iron big block or something, as long as you set the car up right you can get a very good weight bias with it.

There are a lot of things that affect the sound of the exhaust. I usually like the sound of an engine with a really aggressive cam and very little exhaust, that tends to give it that guttural rumble.

[andrewmp6]

Im a cubic inch junkie when you have a heavy car you need low end torque to move a big car.I understand wanting to be different but it takes more money to do so.My friend has a 68 mustang fastback with a cobra 4.6 my 68 coupe has a world 460 small block my car is faster and both cars have about the same amount of money in them.Why not use a gmc big v6 those are nice 305 to 472 ci and make max torque at 1500rpm.

[Vegas69]

I need photos, never was into novels.

[tyoneal]

Originally Posted by Nate_ERC

You have to remember that we are discussing road cars here. The V6 turbo would be great if you're driving flat-out, but IMO not so great for most of our applications. If I was building the "ultimate" 3500+lbs car, I would typically rather have the torque and throttle response advantage of the V8.

Also you have to consider that after you plumb and cool the turbos (especially for a 600hp application), you will probably negate any potential weight distribution improvements. LSx's are so cheap, and so easy to build, that I really feel that they are a no-brainier. It's not like the LSx is an iron big block or something, as long as you set the car up right you can get a very good weight bias with it.

There are a lot of things that affect the sound of the exhaust. I usually like the sound of an engine with a really aggressive cam and very little exhaust, that tends to give it that guttural rumble.

===========================================
Nate:

Thanks for the email.
==============================
"The V6 turbo would be great if you're driving flat-out, but IMO not so great for most of our applications."

A Question: Are the V6 Turbo's only good at WOT? I would expect, once spooled up that the power would be pretty decent at any RPM. Is this wrong?
===============================
"If I was building the "ultimate" 3500+lbs car, I would typically rather have the torque and throttle response advantage of the V8".

Were the Buick's of the day much less than 3500 pounds? Would a properly set up Turbo, NOT have great throttle response? If you have a link or something showing this, please post it, I would like to learn the truth about these engines.

Thanks again for your post.

Add more if you think of something.

Thanks,

Ty

[tyoneal]

Originally Posted by andrewmp6

Im a cubic inch junkie when you have a heavy car you need low end torque to move a big car.I understand wanting to be different but it takes more money to do so.My friend has a 68 mustang fastback with a cobra 4.6 my 68 coupe has a world 460 small block my car is faster and both cars have about the same amount of money in them.Why not use a gmc big v6 those are nice 305 to 472 ci and make max torque at 1500rpm.

===========================

In the, "Trans Am", days the Engine of choice for the, "Road Racing", Camaro's, the 302 Z/28, was not by any means a Torque Monster. It made it's power at the top of the RPM range.

I guess I am not understanding your premise that a good PT Car Must have V8 Stile Torque. Please elaborate.

I'm not wanting to be different for difference sake, I merely want to investigate the other well known High output engines and see if the urge to, "Have a V8", isn't overshadowing other options that might actually make a better performance choice in a PT Car.

While I'm not saying $$$$ doesn't have anything to do with choice, once you want 550-600 RWHP you are almost forced to look at a Turbo or Supercharged Engine if you still wanting to use the LSx Engine family. Even a 700 HP LS7 will still put you in the 15-20k range.

I do think it will cost that amount for a good light weight engine in that power range (750-800 Flywheel HP). If I'm going to spend 10 -12k to get in the ballpark, I would just soon save a little longer and get exactly the best thing I can for the car.

In any event, please post your latest thoughts on this.

Thanks again,

Ty

[tyoneal]

Originally Posted by Nate_ERC

You have to remember that we are discussing road cars here. The V6 turbo would be great if you're driving flat-out, but IMO not so great for most of our applications. If I was building the "ultimate" 3500+lbs car, I would typically rather have the torque and throttle response advantage of the V8.

Also you have to consider that after you plumb and cool the turbos (especially for a 600hp application), you will probably negate any potential weight distribution improvements. LSx's are so cheap, and so easy to build, that I really feel that they are a no-brainier. It's not like the LSx is an iron big block or something, as long as you set the car up right you can get a very good weight bias with it.

There are a lot of things that affect the sound of the exhaust. I usually like the sound of an engine with a really aggressive cam and very little exhaust, that tends to give it that guttural rumble.

====================================
Nate:
I forgot a couple things.

"There are a lot of things that affect the sound of the exhaust. I usually like the sound of an engine with a really aggressive cam and very little exhaust, that tends to give it that guttural rumble."

I agree with you. I too like the guttural rumble, but what I was wanting to understand is the CAUSE of the Rumble.

It can't be a function of merely having 8 cylinders. I've heard v12's that have a high pitched scream rather than a low rumble. Also the Harley V-Twin has a great low Rumble with only two cylinders.

It must be a function of the size of the Cylinder and the Shape rather than the number.

Is this plausible?
==================================
ALSO:

"You have to remember that we are discussing road cars here. The V6 turbo would be great if you're driving flat-out, but IMO not so great for most of our applications. If I was building the "ultimate" 3500+lbs car, I would typically rather have the torque and throttle response advantage of the V8."

As I mentioned in the post following this one,in the "Trans Am" road races of the 60's, the Camaro 302 Z/28 was not a torque monster, it made it's power up high.
(Not meant to be confrontational, just purely for the sake of discussion)
By your reasoning, wouldn't that make the V6 Turbo a good Road Racing Engine?

Thanks,

Ty