Ok Builders, I need some input... (pics)

[SVPJason]

I have a customer car here, that was brought to me Aug. '07 as a running driving "rust free" car.



And after some dimantling I found some damage starting with the cowl that was held on with latex caulk and rivets.. these pics were taken 9/07



once we got the interior out of it, the floors looked pretty solid.. lets just say somebody did a good job of hiding..







This is some of what we found after having it soda blasted...









So before it was said and done, it was four frame rails welded to a table... (pics taken 12/07)



In the end found out that the car was actually 3 cars, it had been cut in half and the back half from a different car had been brazed on (yes I said brazed) along with both floors.

So after alot of fabrication and metal work we got the whole car mocked up, remember it has a full Griggs Racing GR350 suspension, a Terminator motor and a T56.... even because of the watts link had to run the exhaust through the trunk and back out to the stock location..





And here's where I stand with the car as of today.. notice the '05-'09 trans tunnel in the car.




And finally here where I need some input... I started the disassembling of this car 9/07, I have has this car for 18months now. I have Alot of other restorations/projects in the works and don't get to work on this car everyday (as most of us don't) and it's just Paul and I here, Paul helps with the mechanical and assembly of the cars but as far as the metal,body work,and paint... is just me.. I have tried to find good help, but have all but given up on that... but anyways, here's my dilema... the customer is constantly complaining that i have had his car for entirely too long, and now since he has invested over $60K into the car (that's including the $16K purchace price of the car) he's really getting impatient and trying to cut ALOT of corners with the car. This car will be at SEMA this year and you guys know as well as anyone this car done is a 6 figure car... I really don't know what to say to this guy anymore, no matter what I say to him he just doesn't see why it is taking so long... even with the amount of work that's been done! Is this an unreasonable amount of time for what I have done? There is a show in 6 weeks and he wants the car there... regardless.

Please, any imput would be appriciated... positive or negitive...

Thanks
Jason

[Blackdog714]

You can never tell an artist how quickly he should take to create his art. An artist must be inspired and WANT to complete the art otherwise you just have a build and not a creation.

I understand he wants to box you in but I really think he's cutting his nose off despite his face.

Honestly, the only one that can say that you've taken too long is you.

I will say this, there has been an INCREDIBLE amount of work done on that car...


ETA: I realize this is my first post but I don't think that should change the message...

[Vegas69]

That is a misconception that every guy getting into this gig has....why does it take so long. It's something you just have to experience through building a car. I'd introduce him to the forums and the projects. The start and finish dates are documented int he builds. Seems like you have had the car a long time for the amount of work. But it sounds like you're over worked. Maybe you should give him the option to take the car. Sounds like you have made some decent money on him. Custom ain't cheap!

[cluxford]

$60K is that all

Gees, my car is a top end show car, and all up I have $120K in it already and haven't even gone to paint, electrical or interior yet...I suspect at least another $70K+ to go.

Mind you they are all Australian Dollar amounts but still more than $60K US.

My car was started in July 2007. I was pushing for a Dec 09 finish but the builder was getting way way too stressed and I don't want a stressed builder so last week I said take as long as you need, do it right, not do it fast.

It will likely end up being a 3 year build.

You do awesome work, and that car will be stunning when done.

Us customers can be a pain in the a$$. Impatience is something we all have when we have a dream and want it on the road.

I agree with earlier posters. Have the customer come spend some time up on these forums or talk to other builders.

Love your work and keep us posted.

[ccracin]

I hope I don't upset folks here, but this very issue has been a subject of conversation in my group of friends lately. I somewhat disagree with the previous posters. It seems to me that there are two things that don't usually go together in this business, talented craftsmen and businessmen. This car has only been in your shop too long if it has! I know that sounds stupid. Stick with me. What did you 2 agree on originally? If it was 12 months lets say, it has been there too long. It seems written estimates and quotes are very scarce when it comes to building cars. You imply that the car was not as it was suppose to be when you dug into it. IMO you should have stopped and amended the "written" agreement at that point. If the customer felt it was too much than he has the option to stop. If you have a contract it is up to both parties to live up to it. If the customer stops paying than again you update the contract with the new ETD. After all, if this is your business than you should handle it as such. In most cases when I have read and heard about cars being in prison in a shop, there were no contracts. If there is no target then how are you going to get there? Oh, and I can't stand when I hear how many cars guys have to work on and they use that as an excuse for not meeting deadlines. How many can you do with the staff you have? If you have more than you can handle in a reasonable agreed on amount of time, then that is your fault. That is not an acceptable answer to me. I have to determine the work load for my group every time we bid a new job. I give delivery estimates based on hours available. We don't take jobs we can't deliver on. Simple. It just goes back to WHAT DID YOU GUYS AGREE ON? If the answer is it was a verbal discussion, then I would say you have a problem. I don't see a good ending for either side. I would do what you can to stay professional and get to the end. Oh and I speak from personal experience. We had a "verbal" deal to have a specific amount of work done on our truck for "X" dollars and "X" weeks. In the end it was "2X" dollars an "12X" weeks. No exaggeration. Anyway, I'll get off my soap box. It looks like you do good work, I wish you the best of luck.

Respectfully,

[awesometool]

2x exact

Originally Posted by ccracin

I hope I don't upset folks here, but this very issue has been a subject of conversation in my group of friends lately. I somewhat disagree with the previous posters. It seems to me that there are two things that don't usually go together in this business, talented craftsmen and businessmen. This car has only been in your shop too long if it has! I know that sounds stupid. Stick with me. What did you 2 agree on originally? If it was 12 months lets say, it has been there too long. It seems written estimates and quotes are very scarce when it comes to building cars. You imply that the car was not as it was suppose to be when you dug into it. IMO you should have stopped and amended the "written" agreement at that point. If the customer felt it was too much than he has the option to stop. If you have a contract it is up to both parties to live up to it. If the customer stops paying than again you update the contract with the new ETD. After all, if this is your business than you should handle it as such. In most cases when I have read and heard about cars being in prison in a shop, there were no contracts. If there is no target then how are you going to get there? Oh, and I can't stand when I hear how many cars guys have to work on and they use that as an excuse for not meeting deadlines. How many can you do with the staff you have? If you have more than you can handle in a reasonable agreed on amount of time, then that is your fault. That is not an acceptable answer to me. I have to determine the work load for my group every time we bid a new job. I give delivery estimates based on hours available. We don't take jobs we can't deliver on. Simple. It just goes back to WHAT DID YOU GUYS AGREE ON? If the answer is it was a verbal discussion, then I would say you have a problem. I don't see a good ending for either side. I would do what you can to stay professional and get to the end. Oh and I speak from personal experience. We had a "verbal" deal to have a specific amount of work done on our truck for "X" dollars and "X" weeks. In the end it was "2X" dollars an "12X" weeks. No exaggeration. Anyway, I'll get off my soap box. It looks like you do good work, I wish you the best of luck.

Respectfully,

[svp]

There is no specific deadline...There are things being done on this project that have not been done before. It is easy to put together a dated time of completion if you are building a cookie cutter car that every variable can be forseen but when you are going into an area of unkown it is not something you can realistically pin down a deadline and as such no deadline was given or promised and that was agreed upon. The frustration we both share is from the owners "push" to finish it for this show...he is excited about the car and wants to drive it but the patience isn't there at times as well as the experience with building a car like this as he has never had a car like this before.

Every time there has been a game plan change he has been there, we have not just proceeded without his input. Other factors that were not forseen are things like the economy on his end as it affects everyone so naturally he is going to show some concern there.

In the end I don't think he realizes the kind of car he is going to have and I think once he drives it he will finally realize it....in one discussion we had he mentioned wanting to build a Factory Five Cobra and one major thing he didn't realize and what he probably won't fully realize until he drives both and compares them is that this car will blow the FF Cobra away in handling but without a comparison of either car he just doesn't know what to expect.

In the end it just gets frustrating to be pushed when you are creating something of this level. As far as deadlines go....I don't promise deadlines on restorations or builds....There is a saying that I like....There is right now and there is right.....we do it right not "right now" if someone wants a rush job then I politely tell them that they would be better off going elsewhere...if they want it right then I'll be happy to help them. Rushing projects leads to shortcuts and inferior quality builds....you see them all the time.

[DRJDVM's '69]

WOW.... you have alot of work in that car. In my opinion 18 months isnt that bad for the work into that car.....but 18 months is a long time.

Question...did it take that long because of your end alone? In other words, were there any big breaks due to waiting on the customer or parts etc ?

Question #2....is this car some very valuable model etc ? If I had that car and saw the carnage, I would have stopped and gotten a different car....unless its some rare car...in which case, you would have been better off going "original". Thats a pretty thrashed car to start with and unless the customer was dead set on using that exact car, it would have been much better to start all over on a better starter car.

Last question....can you give me the info on those exhaust tips? I'm "in the market" and like those.....

[ccracin]

Jason / Paul,

First, I mean no disrespect at all and I agree there is a right way and the fast way. In my first post I was just trying to say there should be some target and preferably in writing. It looks like you have been doing this for awhile, therefore I still believe you should be able to put some legitimate estimates to this work no matter how bad the car gets. Progress meetings can take care of that and it sounds like you do that. I'm just saying formalize it. Just saying you never know what you get into so I won't give an estimate is a cop out in my opinion. From the pictures, you have been around the block and should have an idea of what it takes to fix everything you have encountered. I estimate the cost of building 1 off million dollar pieces of equipment on a regular basis. If I told my customers this hasn't been done before so I can't put a number on it, I would never get an order. That's just not how business is done and saying you can't put a price or time limit on art is just a bad TV cliche. In the end I am not trying to argue, I'm just trying give another point of view. I certainly can understand the customer being anxious. You are building one bad a$$ ride for him and hopefully he won't push it and cost the overall project. I think my point is made and I don't want continue beating this nag.

On a side note, where in Birmingham are you guys? I graduated from Pelham High School. I lived in the B'ham area for 3 years as a transplant because of my Dad's job. I loved it. Maybe I'll get back there someday.

Later,

[tjbruning]

Originally Posted by DRJDVM's '69

Last question....can you give me the info on those exhaust tips? I'm "in the market" and like those.....

Look like Borla's

edit - wrong answer, but Borla has a similar style with the slanted double wall tip