Investing 102

[WSSix]

In light of the millionaires thread, I figured I'd start one asking how I can make my money work better for me. That way I can click on the higher buttons one day in response to the poll

Seriously though. I'm at a point in my life where all I currently do is work. I live in SW Kansas. There's nothing to freaking do here, and since I'm here for only the short term, I can't get myself set up with a house, shop, or even my car which is back in GA and currently for sale. I have no family or any obligations. Yeah, it feels good. Anyway, my savings account is doing nothing but growing right now at a whopping 0.80%. I want more out of it since it's there and not doing anything presently. I already have a 401k, Roth IRA, HSA, invest in my company's ESPP, and the aforementioned savings. It's an online money market account. I could go higher on my 401k but I'm already at 15% of my income. I'm looking for opinions and information on ways I can put just my savings to better use. I don't know anything about investing beyond the simple stuff and my retirement accounts. I'm not looking to get into anything risky. Hell, I don't know if there's anything else I should do aside from be patient.

So what do people with knowledge in these areas recommend? Any direction I can be pointed in for good info to educate myself beyond the basics? At least I think I've got the basics covered at this point.

Thanks

[ErikLS2]

Two sayings I heard for the first time a long time ago that I've seen in action are: "Don't work for your money, put your money to work for you" and "buy low, sell high". Now, that may be oversimplifying it a bit I know but I have seen many people who don't seem to make enough in their jobs and need more money go out and find more work to do so they're working all the time. I don't think you can ever work hard or fast enough (at least at a job) and make as much money as you can doing the right things with whatever amount of money you have.

I've seen this personally in real estate. When things were going crazy I had enough sense to realize that it couldn't continue and sold at just the right time for an over 100% profit in 4 years. This can apply to stocks, cars, art, etc. It's usually a lot easier to figure out when things are cheap too because when they're booming we are psychologically wired to figure that it'll just continue, that it can't go back down. Some of the greatest financial minds didn't even consider that stocks in late 1999 and early 2000 would ever go back down. I remember talking to my father about this at that time and suggesting to him I was considering getting out but he told me a manager of a very successful mutual fund he knew told him "oh no, this is solid, it will continue". Well, I didn't sell but I learned a lesson which I applied to the next bubble, real estate, which I was a part of.

One last thing I don't ever forget comes from Warren Buffett who says he's fearful when others are greedy and greedy when others are fearful. Oh and one more (can't recall the source): If you want to achieve something find someone who's done it and do what they did. I like these little quotes if you can't tell.

Hope to hear from more people wiser and more experienced than I. Good topic!

[pw2006]

My OCD probably started when I was 12 years old drooling over cars in Super Chevy magazine. I soon came up with a plan, got my first job when I was 13, bought a junked 71 Nova that year and rebuilt the entire car in our barn over the next 3 years. I paid cash for the car, bought parts after I saved enough money and did nearly all the work myself (except when my dad heard me cussing and throwing tools, he would calmly come in, help me fix whatever I was stuck on and tell me to ask him for help if I get stuck again, then he would leave). I had it ready on my 16th birthday and man was I proud of that car...but I digress.

Sounds like you are heading in the right direction. I do all of my own investing, watch CNBC, read financial magazines/books, joined motley fool years ago and have some close friends that I discuss the market/stocks with. I hate debt. I maintain a net worth spreadsheet that also includes my annual financial targets/goals and a 10 year forecast. I still update it weekly(except when I am on vacation). Yes, I have OCD, especially when it comes to family, money and cars. We also try to stretch our money as far as possible by searching for deals on quality items and are not shy about using coupons/discount codes whenever possible.

Nowdays, whenever I hire a new grad, I give them the following advice...max your 401k and ESPP contributions, save a portion of any bonus received and target some of that bonus money for fun, establish a budget that looks out at least a year and build an emergency savings account with ~6mths of expenses. Find a good doctor and pay him a visit each year, being healthy has a very positive impact on net worth.

If you haven't opened a brokerage account, you should look into Schwab. They have a lot tools (online and people) to get you started without any sales pressure. They also offer free seminars to customers (investing 101, intro to options, adv option strategies, etc) that are pretty good. Since Christmas is around the corner, here are a few books that you might find interesting: Warren Buffet's biography, The Millionaire Next Door and The Richest Man In Babylon. So many ways to spend it, so few to make it. I'm sure others will pipe in, but that is my 2 cents.

[RECOVERY ROOM]

Real Estate and stocks.....there all going to go up if you can hold out to see it happen. Find a good broker and have a sit down with them.....Ask around and see who some of your friends are using. Mr. Weld will chime in on this, Listen.

[ErikLS2]

I think if you have a good sense of the psychology of people you can be quite successful. Remember when the first huge brick cell phones appeared? Lots of folks were thinking "who needs a phone with them wherever they go?" Well, who doesn't have a cell phone now? When everyone started getting them Qualcomm stock was up over 2000% in one year, 1998 or 99 I think. There's an opportunity like that out there right now, you just have to find it. There are these cycles where almost everyone in society has to have something and bubbles happen. It happened with computers and cell phones and houses. What's it going to happen with next? Tablets? Those goofy new running shoes? Alternative energy? Cloud computing? Just looking around you at society everyday can tell you a lot about what to invest in if you really look and think outside the box. Of course, there were those that bet on Betamax, HD-DVD and so on so you can lose too.

[SWAPMEETCRAZY]

Originally Posted by ErikLS2

I think if you have a good sense of the psychology of people you can be quite successful. Remember when the first huge brick cell phones appeared? Lots of folks were thinking "who needs a phone with them wherever they go?" Well, who doesn't have a cell phone now? When everyone started getting them Qualcomm stock was up over 2000% in one year, 1998 or 99 I think. There's an opportunity like that out there right now, you just have to find it. There are these cycles where almost everyone in society has to have something and bubbles happen. It happened with computers and cell phones and houses. What's it going to happen with next? Tablets? Those goofy new running shoes? Alternative energy? Cloud computing? Just looking around you at society everyday can tell you a lot about what to invest in if you really look and think outside the box. Of course, there were those that bet on Betamax, HD-DVD and so on so you can lose too.

Erik--should i sell my PAGER business??........lol...........jim.....^^^^very true

[GregWeld]

Okay -- only because Tracy said I had to chime in -- I will do as I'm told.


So -- this answer is one that I say to you -- well.... it all "depends". So without writing a book -- let's take a real BASIC look at savings.

A person needs to think of savings as various BUCKETS of money.

A bucket of money needs to be for "emergencies" -- and this bucket - just like the other buckets we'll get to - needs to be 'adjusted' to meet the needs of the owner. I don't need an emergency bucket. I have plenty of money. Most need some kind of "quick and easy to get to money" -- that needs to be taken care of first. Whether it's $500 or $5000... is up to you. This really needs to be funded by the people that can afford it the least - i.e., the guy with maxed out credit cards!

Another bucket is the retirement bucket.... you seem to be working on that. BTW -- Don't be afraid to put more into this bucket. You do not need to be limited to the 15% you're doing at work. The only thing you're doing to fund more than your limits is that you're putting in AFTER TAX money. Dude - when you retire - and you're all set for life - you won't give a damn what you're living on - the point is that you will have it! So max your workplace and then see if you qualify for a ROTH IRA... which is after tax savings that comes OUT tax free...

THEN -- you really asked about INVESTMENTS.... again - this depends - real estate is ILLIQUID... so unless you have a bunch of dough and are just looking to diversify - fugedaboudit. If you want some liquidity -- with GROWTH in your capital - and get paid to "wait" - get yourself a Schwab account - or some other discount broker - and buy yourself some big cap dividend paying stocks. The rule of investing is to never put more than 5% of your TOTAL INVESTABLE MONEY (all of your investable money not just what's in this particular account!) into ONE investment. That way - if you lost it all (all of one investment) you're not hurt. Pigs get fat - hogs get slaughtered. Ask the builders that loaded up on dirt before the real estate crash - because they ain't makin' any more of it they'd tell ya! Dumbasses...

I'd buy STOCKS for dividend AND growth... so look at a CHART of any company you're interested in... see that over the LONG RUN (like 10 years) the chart is lower on the left and rises as it goes to the right! Forget about the dips in 07/08 - every stock you look at will have that. But lets look at Kinder Morgan Partners - NYSE symbol KMP - there is a nice chart... AND it pays 5.86% (based on todays price) which is $1.16 per share per quarter. So if you bought 50 shares - every 3 months you'd get a dividend of $58 (you're getting paid to wait - you're waiting for the share price to appreciate!). Yeah I own it.

I'd also look at AT&T (symbol T) - pays about 6% dividend. Is "steady" price wise. Great place to park money and be relatively sure it's going to still be there - good market or bad. Again - you get paid to wait. Yeah I own it.

So that's what I'd be doing. Diversify - don't buy TWO oil stocks -- buy ONE - Then get a consumer food stock -- Coke (KO) or Pepsi (PEP) or McDonalds (MCD). Funny -- people laugh when I tell 'em to buy McDonalds -- the stock is UP 125% in the last 5 years! AND you get a .61 a share per quarter dividend! So here's the deal -- it's what I ALWAYS look for.... if they don't pay a dividend - I'm not a buyer - and if the dividend is "low" (like MCD's is) then I want the growth to be there.... I'll take STEADY (AT&T) but then I want a higher dividend. Does that make sense?

Then --- DO NOT GET CAUGHT UP IN TRADING - DO NOT PANIC - DO NOT LISTEN TO THE GROCERY STORE CLERK TELLING YOU ABOUT THEIR LATEST BIG MARKET HIT.... RUN AWAY from those people! DO NOT BUY GOLD... IF THEY MAKE A TV SHOW ABOUT SOMETHING (House flipping?) RUN FOR THE HILLS... DO NOT INVEST IN IT. YOU'RE ALREADY TOO LATE!

There is no get rich quick scheme. Steady Eddy whens the race. LONG TERM is not 15 minutes. Buy good quality big names that you know and understand - with good charts and good dividends. Then sit back and laugh at the losers when they're broke and you're not.


Oh -- and make sure you check the little box when you buy "REINVEST THE DIVIDEND". That way every time they pay you - they buy more of their stock automatically for you - more shares - more dividends - which buy more shares which pay more dividends...

If you buy a stock and it's value DOUBLES (just an example) then sell the "gain" and buy something else. Nobody ever went broke taking a profit. It helps you to diversify - and keeps each investment in that 5% bracket.

There's a lot more to it -- and more details etc - but them's the basics. Stay thirsty my friend!

[realcoray]

I'm just about to get into real estate and it seems like if you are smart there are a decent amount of opportunities out there to earn far more than 0.80%.

The thing is I think everyone is different and can tolerate different risk levels. I remodeled my current house (essentially a duplex) and repair it so that is not a concern in terms of having a rental property. I'm not going to over extend and take on much overall risk, so even in a worst case scenario I don't get jammed up.

It's probably not for everyone though but I can say there are relatively safe ways to earn more than 0.80%.

[Vegas69]

Greg, I know a little about how you became wealthy but I'd really like to hear your story from ground zero. It's one thing to strike it rich, it's another to keep it.

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by Vegas69

Greg, I know a little about how you became wealthy but I'd really like to hear your story from ground zero. It's one thing to strike it rich, it's another to keep it.

That would take a book.... but I can tell you that really hitting pay dirt for us was more luck than smarts. I was a made a partner in a multi million dollar business in New York City in my mid 20's... Sold out in 1983 and moved back to the west coast... had enough money to live decently and start a new business as a wholesale distributor in the patio furniture industry and at the same time Gwen went to work @ Microsoft in 1984... when they had a whopping 600 employees and PRE IPO... My business went gangbusters and at the same time MSFT went nuts too. BUT and here's the big BUTT.... many of our friends that had MORE stock options than we had by 5 times... they've gone broke and many are back working! We stayed in our same house - and invested our windfall. One of those investments that was made more recently (7 or 8 years ago now) just rang the bell in an all cash transaction (it's public info) for 2.25 Billion.... and we owned 1% of all the outstanding shares... so once again it was luck. For us - this was icing on the cake and came late stage in the scheme of things. We went from a very comfortable early retirement to being able to do almost anything we want. Not private jet rich but set up pretty nicely and luckily at a stage of life that let's us do a few things we'd like to do.

Here's the real take away from what I've learned over the years.... and I'm talking about handling money and watching others mishandle it.

All of us - regardless of where we are in life - have the ability to spend more than we earn.

To this day I marvel at what others have... I look around and think "geezus - how do they do that?! They must be really rich!"

I've stated earlier that all our friends have second homes... we don't. They're all still working, we're not. They have "stuff" and expenses... we have cash that earns income.


Wealth is a variable statement that depends more on the desires of the person than the amount available in the bank.


My Mother in law lives in a great little house... 1/3rd the size of the family home which was sold after an early death of my Father in law. She's been retired since then (1983) and has about 350K invested + Social Security. She lives great and has traveled etc. Buys a new Honda Accord every 4 or 5 years and pays cash. There's the key -- owns the house - no payments - saves money even to this day (in other words she spends less than her income). She doesn't have that much income but doesn't need much either! She is wealthy compared to my parents that never had anything but had a Cadillac in the driveway and couldn't live unless I helped them every month AND I owned the home they lived in. (they're both deceased now)


INVESTING EARLY in life is the key to real success LATER in life.


If you want to live well for a long time - you need to either be really lucky (me) or be really diligent EARLY in your careers... and invest rather than piss away money. Whether that's buying a rental house... and every time you get more dough you buy another... and then parlay that into a fourplex... or you invest in a business of your own.... or you just work and pound every extra dime into the stock market...... ALL OF THESE STRATEGIES REQUIRE TIME TO PAY OFF.

You need to put yourself into a position in order to be "lucky" later. Even if this means you drive your old car for 4 years AFTER you finished paying it off... BUT you have to put that same payment in the bank every month so when the next car purchase is made -- you buy a late model USED car and pay cash and keep pounding the payment you would have been making in the bank.

Wealth - or being "comfortable" doesn't require great wealth. It requires great management of what is available and that might mean that there is some tradeoff in the "appearance" of wealth now for the real "wealth" that will come later.... when all those azzholes are still working as greeters at Wal-Mart when they're 73.... and you're sitting in your lawn chair at a car show in Santa Barbara.


I will tell you something else that I don't think can be understood but I'm going to try to put it into perspective and this is just purely a personal "how a guy lives" kind of statement.

The entire time I was in Italy -- in very world class hotels -- eating at the worlds best restaurants -- being driven around in a MBZ.... I said a 100 times to Gwen "I'd just as soon be in Willows eating Mexican food with my friends" -- and I MEANT IT.

So wealth - to me - is really more about getting to some level of life's little pleasures that you enjoy and that doesn't mean they have to be expensive or the best or the biggest - or the baddest in the universe. I'd live in a shoebox house in Wenatchee and have a used Yugo before I'd go back to work to keep what I have now. Because to me - the only thing I have of real value is my time and no amount of money can get me more of that.