Am I out of line??

[DOOM]

I'm about to pull the trigger on my engine for the Camaro. It's going to be a $40,000,00 +++++++ deal. I have been talking to my lawyer who is my neighbor and friend for 15 years and had him write me up a contract. Basically stating I will get what I paid for in a timely manner. I have passed up on two builders who have been evasive on completion time not answering the question, ''How long will it take to get my engine''. I completely understand these things take time don't get me wrong. But after my AP ordeal I'm not going to play the I said we said BS!! I want it to be very clear in writing what is expected from both parties. I also want to put the money in some type of account showing the money is there and I can release it as needed. My lawyer said that can be done with no problem. Do you guys think this is to extreme??? Am I out of line?? I keep reading all the horror stories about guys getting taken for thousands of dollars. Its hard to trust anyone when it comes to this ''hobby'' anymore I don't care who it is. I would like to here what you guys think..

[ccracin]

This sounds like an excellent idea to me Mario. In all seriousness this kind of thing is done in a lot of areas of business. Most notably for most is when you have a home built. This is how the banks handle paying the contractor. A contract is setup, progress inspections are done and money "draws" are issued based on the actual progress. To me this protects both parties. The vendor knows you have the funds and the customer has some level of comfort they will get what they want. If a vendor is unwilling to enter in to this agreement, then you have to ask why. This may sound odd, but make sure you spell out the consequences to either of you not living up to your ends of the agreement. I have friend right now that had a contract drawn up that said what each agreed to, but had no consequences if it didn't happen. At that point it means nothing. In the industry I work in, it is not uncommon to have an incentive adder too. If the vendor delivers on time, you pay the agreed amount. If they deliver early give them a 2-5% bonus. If they are late then they loose some percentage. If it goes too long, you have the right to cancel the deal. I really think you are on the right track and that if this was done more, people would be happier and more of the bad vendors would go away. Keep us posted on how you go forward.

By the way, you should talk to Casey Wegner at Wegner Automotive. They are first class and deliver on what they say. They actually had to wait for us and had no issue with that. We gave them a down payment and they told us call when your ready and we'll get it done. They did just that!

[syborg tt]

Originally Posted by ccracin

By the way, you should talk to Casey Wegner at Wegner Automotive. They are first class and deliver on what they say. They actually had to wait for us and had no issue with that. We gave them a down payment and they told us call when your ready and we'll get it done. They did just that!

I sent my motor and parts to Casey and 4 weeks later he called and said the motor was ready for $1,000.00 less then he quoted me. Trust me that doesn't happen "EVER".

Then when we looking for help I sent him and e-mail and within an hour I had a response with a part number and even a link to get the part.

Casey and the guys at Wegner are Number 1 in my book.

and good news for you Mario they are only about 2 hours from us.

[Dayton]

Originally Posted by syborg tt

I sent my motor and parts to Casey and 4 weeks later he called and said the motor was ready for $1,000.00 less then he quoted me.

Less? A vendor asked for less money than quoted? Surely this is a typo!
Or, maybe miracles do happen....just not to me.

[syborg tt]

Originally Posted by Dayton

Less? A vendor asked for less money than quoted? Surely this is a typo!
Or, maybe miracles do happen....just not to me.

Nope no Typo here and it was a significant amount.

[Shmoov69]

As far as I'm concerned, if the builder has a problem with it, then that is NOT who I'd go with. $40k may be beans to some people, but to most it's a freakin ton of money!! Heck,in my field we might get down money most if the time but until my project is done, I don't get the remainder of the money.

I remember the line in Three Amigos, "No dough..... No show!"

[carbuff]

I don't think you are out of line at all. And as someone who has been similarly affected in past dealings, I don't blame you in the least for trying to do this.

That said, I will be very interested to hear the responses you receive as you approach vendors with this proposal. I expect you are going to get a lot of blank stares / confused voices / etc, and likely flat out refusals. Not that you should, what you are asking for is completely reasonable. But most small businesses of the type who are in the car hobby aren't likely to have on-staff counsel, or even a relationship with someone who can be counsel for them. And as such, I expect most of them won't even consider signing an agreement like you are proposing.

I hope our hobby hasn't truly gotten to a point where this type of step is actually necessary...

[Ron in SoCal]

The only thing you're out of line on is spending 40 large on a motor...

Seriously Mario, you make a few good points. Today's economy has seen a huge erosion in vendor/customer relationships and it's the customer who usually pays. Today's mantra is trust no one and the bigger the deal, the more protections that are built into the agreement.

Having said that, you cannot universally translate transactional Ts & Cs from one industry to the next. It may work in some instances and not in others. A great example - all respect Chad - is dis-incentives. In my business we will not construct nor agree to any contract that gives the customer a right not to pay us. It's hard enough to get our customers to honor our invoices in a timely manner even when all goes perfect. We deal in IP though, not hard goods.

Most custom motor builders are small businesses. They do not have this level of product nor bulk inventory sitting on the shelf waiting for you to come along, so they'll want to be reimbursed for the parts invested. They aren't banks nor made of cash so that would be a reasonable request of them. Then there's the time involved to produce your motor so it will live. That takes care and talent. Some may agree to this payment schedule, some may not. He has to put food on the table as well.

Do you lose out on having your motor built by 'THE GUY' because he won't take your payment terms?

I've had great experiences with custom motors being built in terms of final product. Never was one (out of four) ever delivered on time. What happens if under your agreement, you release progress payments and then the build stalls? He's got the parts $$$ (1/2 or more of the total?) and the balance is sitting in an account waiting for him to finish, which he doesn't do as agreed and your frustration level rises. What if the parts suppliers don't deliver those custom parts (pistons - happens all the time!)? Is that his issue? Using another example we see here all the time - what happens when the parts are stalled, you're not paying the bulk until he finishes and another consistent paying job walks in just like the body shop industry (not you Mario, but you know what I mean). Lots to think about.

In your shoes, I'd pick the builder carefully (not Beck or Nelson) and present the idea of an agreement. See how it goes over and how you two can come to terms that each party can live with. Don't make it so restrictive that if some thing comes up the builder decides not to complete or work on it in a timely manner. Lastly, be prepared for delays. Hate to say it, but it is reality in the custom motor game at the level you're playing at.

[Sparks67]

Most engine builders are at the hands of the manufacturers. So, you start ordering custom pistons, custom rods, etc. Be prepared to wait, because all manufacturers have adopted Just-in-time manufacturing methods. The supplier doesn't have the items in stock, so it has to be built. My Harrop TVS 2300 supercharger only took 3 weeks to acquire, but custom pistons and custom rods took months. I have talked to other custom engine builders, and they all seem to have the same problem with acquiring custom pistons. Also, be careful on what you are buying, because now only few companies are building crankshafts & rods in the USA. Majority of the parts now are coming from overseas.

Originally Posted by Vegas69

own most of the parts initially, and then fund it in increments as progress and labor are tendered. Tell them you want reasonable expectations up front due to you past experiences. Do your research and find recent references.

Actually, it is rare to find a builder to use your own parts anymore. My local engine builder will do it, but he will recommend to you better quality parts. So, if you have a goal of 1000 HP, then you need parts that will survive in that engine. I talked to Brian Thompson on this and he only recommends USA made products. He has seen so many China crankshafts break, and it increases the costs of the engine, when you cut corners on parts.


Jeff

[INTMD8]

Originally Posted by Sparks67

Most engine builders are at the hands of the manufacturers. So, you start ordering custom pistons, custom rods, etc. Be prepared to wait

This^^

I don't think you're being unreasonable if all of the parts are available.

We are way behind schedule on a job at the shop I work at but if it takes months for a block or something else to be available there's not much you can do to get it done faster.