WELD/SUTTON DIRT MISSILE build

[GregWeld]

It's 9:30 PM and after going to back to the track this morning to confirm some details on my new shed space.... and fussing a bit in the old space -- a nice 12 hour drive and I'm home.


I will post a long and detailed review of the real actual events tomorrow when I can think straight and think about what I want to say.

[Ron Sutton]

Originally Posted by FETorino

Was the clockwise track direction the only issue you were dealing with?

Oh hell no. For me & the crew it was a rough 3 days. Thursday after Greg drove the car around the block at Randy's shop ... at speeds we won't mention here ... the throttle quit responding. We loaded anyway & went to the track. So Friday morning at the track we spent hours figuring out what the cause of the problem was. Before we accurately diagnosed the harness I had ordered two throttle bodies, harnesses & other stuff from Summit in Reno & had it "Lyfted" to us at the track in Willows, CA. 3 hours & $400 will be the answer to some questions asked here.

After we got the harness reworked & car running, the first session on track was cut short from oil blow by out of the Dry Sump breather. For anyone not there, there was a cloud of smoke that would come out. This problem haunted us all 3 days. We got it "reduced" enough on Saturday to where we could make a warm up lap & run 2-3 hard, fast laps before it reared its head. But it never went away & won't until we change the system.

We also had a cooling issue. We run a C&R extruded radiator with a heat exchanger built in to cool the engine oil. The engine got hot quicker than it should have. This amplified the oiling issue & the oiling issue amplified the cooling issue. So the crew had to do a routine of clean off the dry sump vent, any excess oil & cool down the car after every run. Friday's test day was brutal. Not good. And not the way the car should work or will work, once I get it fixed. Saturday & Sunday were "better." The crew & I never quit, so we toughed it out did what was necessary to run the best we could each session of the NASA weekend.

We did miss a session each day as well. The missed session on Saturday was to repair a broken shock mount from where Benny got off track after the bypass. This required the shock mount to be rewelded on & braced. Thank goodness there was a good shop there to fix that, or we'd have been done. We missed another session Sunday, dealing with burnt starter wires. (Engine bay was very hot).

The car was crazy fast, but it's not correct yet. The RSRT stuff I designed, like the chassis, suspension, brakes, 3rd Member & engine combo all worked well. Some of the things I just buy, also worked good, like the PPG Sequential transmission, QuarterMaster clutch & X-ineering "no lift" shift controller. But the ARE Dry Sump system had serious issues that were frustrating as Fu#$. So was the C&R cooling system. Both of those companies have awesome records of great products. But the systems they recommended that are "currently" on Greg's car did not work well at all. Gotta be fixed.

So back at the office, I'll be working with the cooling experts at C&R & the dry sump gurus at ARE to figure out what's wrong & make whatever changes are needed to Greg's car & future Track-Warriors. After we figure out what changes are needed to the dry sump system tank/plumbing/venting & cooling system, we'll bring Greg's car back to Randy's shop & make those upgrades/corrections. Well before it runs again. Frankly, we'll probably go test just to make sure the cooling system & dry sump vent don't have any issues & work as they should before going to another event.

At this time, the car is NOT plug n' play. Rob, I didn't want you to take me not posting a story with details as "all was great." I did want to announce the pool winner. As you know, it was rough. But we toughed it out & got a couple TTU wins which are really a testament to the car's capabilities & the crews perseverance. But we still have work to do.

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by Ron Sutton

Oh hell no. For me & the crew it was a rough 3 days. Thursday after Greg drove the car around the block at Randy's shop ... at speeds we won't mention here ... the throttle quit responding. We loaded anyway & went to the track. So Friday morning at the track we spent hours figuring out what the cause of the problem was. Before we accurately diagnosed the harness I had ordered two throttle bodies, harnesses & other stuff from Summit in Reno & had it "Lyfted" to us at the track in Willows, CA. 3 hours & $400 will be the answer to some questions asked here.

After we got the harness reworked & car running, the first session on track was cut short from oil blow by out of the Dry Sump breather. For anyone not there, there was a cloud of smoke that would come out. This problem haunted us all 3 days. We got it "reduced" enough on Saturday to where we could make a warm up lap & run 2-3 hard, fast laps before it reared its head. But it never went away & won't until we change the system.

We also had a cooling issue. We run a C&R extruded radiator with a heat exchanger built in to cool the engine oil. The engine got hot quicker than it should have. This amplified the oiling issue & the oiling issue amplified the cooling issue. So the crew had to do a routine of clean off the dry sump vent, any excess oil & cool down the car after every run. Friday's test day was brutal. Not good. And not the way the car should work or will work, once I get it fixed. Saturday & Sunday were "better." The crew & I never quit, so we toughed it out did what was necessary to run the best we could each session of the NASA weekend.

We did miss a session each day as well. The missed session on Saturday was to repair a broken shock mount from where Benny got off track after the bypass. This required the shock mount to be rewelded on & braced. Thank goodness there was a good shop there to fix that, or we'd have been done. We missed another session Sunday, dealing with burnt starter wires. (Engine bay was very hot).

The car was crazy fast, but it's not correct yet. The RSRT stuff I designed, like the chassis, suspension, brakes, 3rd Member & engine combo all worked well. Some of the things I just buy, also worked good, like the PPG Sequential transmission, QuarterMaster clutch & X-ineering "no lift" shift controller. But the ARE Dry Sump system had serious issues that were frustrating as Fu#$. So was the C&R cooling system. Both of those companies have awesome records of great products. But the systems they recommended that are "currently" on Greg's car did not work well at all. Gotta be fixed.

So back at the office, I'll be working with the cooling experts at C&R & the dry sump gurus at ARE to figure out what's wrong & make whatever changes are needed to Greg's car & future Track-Warriors. After we figure out what changes are needed to the dry sump system tank/plumbing/venting & cooling system, we'll bring Greg's car back to Randy's shop & make those upgrades/corrections. Well before it runs again. Frankly, we'll probably go test just to make sure the cooling system & dry sump vent don't have any issues & work as they should before going to another event.

At this time, the car is NOT plug n' play. Rob, I didn't want you to take me not posting a story with details as "all was great." I did want to announce the pool winner. As you know, it was rough. But we toughed it out & got a couple TTU wins which are really a testament to the car's capabilities & the crews perseverance. But we still have work to do.

No..... no, you won't be doing anything with the car because as you know - you were FIRED. I will post why, in detail, in the morning when I have time.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Originally Posted by Blake Foster

I love how ALL of your threads just go right off the deep end!!! too funny

man, understatement of the year.

[GregWeld]

#1 ---- I don't want anyone being misled and doing business based on "what Weld is doing". My associations and choices shouldn't be seen as a tacit endorsement until I specifically say so.... and if I can not say that.... you all know how brutally honest I will be -- whether it's about investing or building or... anything.

#2 ---- I do not, and will not, ever "do harm" to someone or someones business, without having good reason. The internet can be your friend -- it can also be your undoing. I am not a keyboard warrior or flamer.

#3 ---- I will not ever "cover up" or "gloss over" in an effort to save my own ego. If something is good - I'll be the first to share - But I will never be the guy.... (think back to PRODIGY/FRANK) that people talked about for a couple of YEARS, and yet wouldn't post/share what they knew - therefore continuing the pain for OTHERS. Had the first people that got screwed by Frank spoke up - many other people wouldn't have been harmed. Man up - be honest - and help others avoid what happened to you.

[GregWeld]

I'm not a "car virgin".... I've built many, and have had a few built. Nobody understands the trials and tribulations better than I do. The fact that I can actually do all the work, and have done the work myself.... makes me rather unique. I understand how much TIME things take to do -- I understand the billable hours.... I understand the pitfalls and mistakes. I've made them. I try to make them only once... and I'm not afraid to yard it all out and build it over.

I'm also a 34 year member of AA -- ownership of your problem is a big deal. Honesty is even a bigger deal. Not doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity....

The building of this car was based on a couple simple premises. I wanted a fat tired car with a sequential shift.

I wanted to help Sutton and SpeedTech (by having them build the car). Something they both could point to and use it to help their businesses etc.

Unfortunately Blake (@SpeedTech), who has been a great personal friend for many years now, could not build the car fast enough for my tight schedule. Nor were they willing to build it for the price Sutton was willing to pay (this has NOTHING to do with me - it's between Sutton and whomever he contracts with). If you go to the catalog and order a car -- there are choices listed. Since SpeedTech was listed as one of the choices of builders.... Naturally I choose them! They've built race cars - they ARE racers - They are suspension and chassis people... they run LS motors.... Jay is a hot shoe driver... I can kill two birds with one stone -- and help TWO friends at the same time! What could possibly go wrong?

Since SpeedTech couldn't do the build (Blake and I talked A LOT about why he couldn't, and what I could do extra $$$, to get what I wanted and have them build it). Alas it was not meant to be -- So Sutton chose "the builder". Naturally HE chose his old racing buddy and employee. Fine. It eliminates one of my goals -- but the ultimate goal is to get the car built before I croak. I do have terminal cancer.... and liver issues.... I've been given my own "deadline" (see what I did there?). I live with the daily realization that tomorrow I could wake up and days away from death. When and if this crap metastasizes..... I'm toast.

Dates and times were discussed. The track was rented. The date was movable given enough notice... maybe.... and if it wasn't? So what -- I'd eat the track rental and make another later date. Many times during the build -- the date was questioned and I was assured with a "no problem" response. Awesome! This is going to be so much fun I can hardly stand it!!

Make no mistake -- this build was a RUSH job. But if you take that job on KNOWING it's a rush job... and you wave your hand and say "I got this" --- and tell stories about how you've built whole cars in a week.... Okay -- Let's roll with it.

NOBODY builds stuff for me without ample money available. I pay in advance. I try to HELP a person/business by doing this simple thing.... and I do so knowing I'm paying out the rope. I also let the builder just do their thing. If I'm asked to make a choice - that choice is made right then - and it's not changed. I got to choose the body - tranny - motor power level - wheel design - gauge package. Those choices were made when we (Sutton and a couple other buddies) walked PRI in December of 2017.

June 28th was the track date.

I was then told this was going to be "tight" and was I okay with not having the body done and chassis powder coated etc. We agreed that was fine - that could be accomplished afterward. No biggie. I get the see the car on track - and frankly - not having the car "finished" could work out to be an advantage should we want to change something.

THAT DAY WAS THE CLUSTER F FROM HELL...... the car was nowhere near ready to roll -- and we finally got to the hotel at 2 AM -- and up at 7 to hit the track. Remember that I'm old and not healthy (at that time) and this was especially hard on me. No biggie -- push thru -- have fun! No bad days! Well -- this was a badder day.... LOL. The car wouldn't fire -- looked like crap -- puked oil -- and barely made any laps. It was not only a very expensive "test and tune" day money wise -- it was also just a gigantic waste of time.

After that day --- I spoke at length with Ron about expectations - dates - and what my goals were and why. The doctors tell me I'm dying - soon - and I don't have time to waste. I made that clear - and Ron and I are friends first - and he knows all of this. I was assured this wouldn't happen again... and another date was agreed on. There are many folks involved in these dates. Rons schedule - the builder - Benny Moon (driver) and crew/mechanics etc. There are rooms to be reserved and fees to be paid and on and on. It ain't that simple. But it all worked out. Kinda.

Back up a bit --- because I want everyone to understand the basis for all the decisions and dates etc.

At PRI we walked the show and discussed build quality expectations.... I could have ordered a complete car from about a dozen different companies that week. Some of which are offered in Suttons catalog. Some of which I wouldn't walk across the street to look at and some where SEMA quality builds. My understanding was "not like this" (horrible) but more like "this" (a 20 footer - typical race car stuff) and "it's a race car not a SEMA car". Remember I'm a guy that pit crewed for glass bodied cars in the early '70's. I've owned other race cars... drag and road race.... I'm not some clueless boob from Turniptown.

At the JUNE 28th test and tune --- we had what I would call "severe" oiling (dry sump) and electrical issues. From the very first lap -- this A.R.E. system puked it's guts...... and LS motors DO NOT leak from the valve covers. THIS SHOULD BE YOUR FIRST CLUE THAT SOMETHING AIN'T RIGHT...... DOH! A simple thing like the battery not being charged is a typical "dropped the ball" deal... okay - deal with it - go buy a charger and let's move forward.... but in the meantime we're wasting valuable track time -- and my time.... The day was so disappointing that I considered cutting my losses right then. But that's not the way I work.... and I've been thru this kind of stuff before so let it go.

The decision was then made to attempt to run NASA at THILL -- rather than the same weekend -- spending time with my buddies running Sonoma at the NorCal Shelby club NATIONALS.... I have a garage at Thunderhill with tools and air and lift and tire guy next door... so if we needed stuff - it was there. I expected to NEED all those things. Been here -- done that -- expect crap to happen.

Read Rons post for details what happened for THREE DAYS STRAIGHT. SAME PROBLEMS -- SAME RINSE AND REPEAT.

What does that say? Nobody bothered to understand what was happening with the oiling system.... and the car was completely disassembled and put back together by the builder. At that time - before it was made "pretty" - any wire routing or heat issues etc should have been addressed. We'd already done a dress rehearsal.

There was two months to address the oiling system. Pull the motor - get it on the dyno - do some basic testing and involve the ARE people etc and sort it !! If all this costs extra -- okay. Just do it - I build stuff Carte Blanche! Maybe this is my downfall??

[GregWeld]

So in a nutshell.....

The oiling system problem was completely preventable with a few phone calls or a quick internet search --- TWO MONTHS AGO WHEN YOU KNEW YOU HAD AN ISSUE. Dave found the issue discussed add-infinitum in one simple search. Ron Schwarz knew the fix and the issue the minute Aaron Oberle texted the him.

The electrical issues (there should never be ANY electrical issues if you have any clue about wiring stuff at all.... period)..... all self-inflicted. Bad planning on your part does not constitute an emergency for me (or something like that). LOL

We (Sutton/Randy/Greg) discussed the "fit and finish" in detail. Many excuses offered... more rope paid out.... expectations defined. At the time I was told that "Randy" wanted more money to finish the car properly. I bristled at the mere suggestion of this -- I ordered a catalog car. Period. The price is listed - the options selected. All paid for in advance. All Sutton had to do is deliver the product offered for the agreed upon price. To me - and I told Sutton this directly -- "it's a test" -- lets see if you can really build this stuff.... If you can, it should be really good for your business. I love to help people. It's my daily goal.

The REAL ANSWER IS ........ No he can't. Save yourself the BS and just buy a car from a real builder. There's a ton of them - one trip to PRI and you'll realize this should be easy if you choose the right company. $200,000 gets you just about any race car in this class. This is a tube chassis - glass body - LS motor car with a fancy transmission and big tires. Big whoop. It ain't rocket science.

I wanted to do this project to help a friend - have some fun - and with what he'd done with Old Yeller -- this was going to be absolutely OUTSTANDING.... <sprinkle fairy dust here>.

I spent 24 hours after the weekend - cleaning the sh!t show in my shop - and a 12 hour drive home.... alone..... deciding what to do - what to say - holding my buddies back from posting - because I knew the end result was to destroy a friendship and loose my corner man... but the larger issue for me is to make many friends and save them from the quicksand. If I say there's quicksand in the field -- and you choose to walk there anyway -- Oh Well..... I followed the Yellow Brick Road and I must pull the curtain back. I owe this to myself and to the community we are. We're brothers in arms and we should protect each other first.

I have an 8 minute video that needs to be reviewed before posting on YouTube -- 8 minutes or so on nothing but the body and wrap... on a $200,000 race car. LOL -- you'd have to see it in person to believe it. Last night I thought of what I was going to say to make you understand what is going on here.... so here goes.

You and your buddies are in a dark smokey bar -- across the way sitting at the bar with her back to you is a shapely blonde in tight baby blue t-shirt and tight blue jeans..... You send her a drink and hope for the wink.... your buddies are egging you on and you're setting it up --- drink arrives and she turns around to wink and nod thanks -- but SHE is an IT --- and IT is a 75 year old toothless drag queen that's seen a bit too much Coppertone.....

Yes... you are doing your thinking with the wrong part.... and in an instant, you went from hero to zero and the ribbing and joking and beatings shall continue for years to come..... "hey! There's a blonde buy her a drink!" UGH...... it's life and those are the memories we make -- and this body and wrap job are far worse than anything I could photo or explain. Just think -- on track - bad ass blonde haired blue eyed..... but the reality is far different. I'm not even sure it's salvageable.

[GregWeld]

I remember building the red '32 at Steve Frisbee's..... and all the stupid - beyond stupid - issues with it..... and then talking with other builder buddies etc and AFTERWARD they all say ---- OH HELL -- HE'S NEVER BUILT A CAR THAT RUNS AND DRIVES.....

Why AFTERWARDS do you tell me the truth..... why not say so beforehand -- we're friends for gods sake -- give me a nudge and a heads up.

That is what I'm doing for you all...... Heads up! Talk to folks you know that are on the receiving end of waiting for info after the fact - waiting for "fixes" - waiting for product. Sad. It coulda all been so different. Say what you're going to do - do what you say you're going to do. I never bought bullsh!t and excuses and blame (read his stupid post blaming everything and taking NO OWNERSHIP). Go sit in the back of a couple AA meetings --- much applies here.

I'm stressed to the max --- I don't need stress -- it's not healthy. I don't have TIME -- I don't do excuses. I should have listened to my bride of 39 years and fired him in June. I might have recovered the project and had some fun and a running driving car this time around.

Oh to be sure -- it runs like a raped ape..... it's low -- it's mean -- it's also a One Lap Wonder ---- as the NASA official referred to it..... damn it! She will forever be referred to as that. Guys will talk in the pits ---- hey! Remember that one lap Mustang?? It could run a 25 hour enduro later -- and all they'll talk about is "the one lapper". Oh - here comes ol' one lap....

The only reason it could "win" (was never the goal).... was because BENNY MOON is a wheel -- and he could take the pile out for three laps and roast it..... most could never do that!! I'll forever be grateful for his skills, because I got to witness the potential of my mail order bride. I hope to live long enough to see it fixed correctly and run even harder.... and I'd like it to be sorted enough for me to make a 3 minute lap in it. Aaron and I know how tentative the future is.....

[jeds]

Thank you for your candor Greg.

I'm confused...has a LS based track warrior never been constructed before? Oiling and cooling solutions don't seem like something that you should be best-guessing on for turn-key customer cars.

I guess I would have assumed some level of test-and-verify before putting something in a catalog.

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by jeds

Thank you for your candor Greg.

I'm confused...has a LS based track warrior never been constructed before? Oiling and cooling solutions don't seem like something that you should be best-guessing on for turn-key customer cars.

I guess I would have assumed some level of test-and-verify before putting something in a catalog.

Yes -- that is what a guy would think... and be lead to believe.... the Wizard is a wizard at SUSPENSION AND BRAKES..... Man does he know how to make something handle.... and driver coaching.

Running an actual business takes a little more than that. If this was merely a one horse accident -- we wouldn't be having this conversation. I can assure you this is the tip of the iceberg! So many victims. I'm even more angry that I've lead my friends into the swamp. It stops NOW!