Question for our metal fabricators!!!

[ironworks]

Originally Posted by DOOM

Thanx for the pictures Roger!! I been avoiding my tig welder but I know its time to pull it out and start learning. It's a Hobart EZ-TIG 165i I figured this would be a simple machine to start with. I have spent more time fitting and it does make a big difference...

Just buy some flat sheet (18gauge) cut some strips and weld it back together. If yo ever want to be the internet superstar Jason (WAR) #9 is, you will have to become one with you TIG. Cut and fit, tack it together, and weld little bits. Weld about aninch and cool it with the Air hose. Weld another inch, then cool it. Repeat this process for about 12-16 inches. Then sand just the weld smooth not the base metal. Maybe use a die grinder wheel to knock the top off.


This thread makes me think we should offer a class or seminar for this skill. It's not hard, but just takes practice and experience. But having some weekend guidance would good.

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by ironworks

Just buy some flat sheet (18gauge) cut some strips and weld it back together. If yo ever want to be the internet superstar Jason (WAR) #9 is, you will have to become one with you TIG. Cut and fit, tack it together, and weld little bits. Weld about aninch and cool it with the Air hose. Weld another inch, then cool it. Repeat this process for about 12-16 inches. Then sand just the weld smooth not the base metal. Maybe use a die grinder wheel to knock the top off.


This thread makes me think we should offer a class or seminar for this skill. It's not hard, but just takes practice and experience. But having some weekend guidance would good.

Don't forget to clamp your work! (even while practicing) Welding is more than just making a pretty little puddle -- it's as important, if not more important, to have the work NOT WARP!

Just for those reading this thread -- take the two strips Rodger suggests -- lay them flat side by side -- then just do a nice tack at one extreme end. Look at the other end - the gap will have grown!

To do this properly -- clamp the crap out of it (both strips) = tack one end - then the other end - then the middle - then split that again. Now the gap won't move on you.... BUT if you unclamped and finished your weld - the piece will warp... so you leave your clamps --- move them as required to work - and keep it clamped to the flat work space. Weld and cool and weld and cool and keep cooling before you unclamp. It will still warp but that's what you'd work out with a hammer and dolly if you're doing this on a body part.

Remember -- every time you melt (heat) the metal - that area GROWS - and that area also SHRINKS as it cools. The one little spot you melted - and then shrunk is going to move differently than all the other larger metal around the weld area. Clamping and controlling your heat is the way you're trying to control the movement as much as possible... but there is also WHERE you choose to place your welds - because HOW and WHERE you weld will also help counteract the movement.

To picture this in your head -- think of welding a "T" --- (I can't make the T upside down but picture it that way). SO make an inside corner weld on one side of the T and the T won't be straight anymore... but if you tacked the two ends and tacked in the middle = Tack one end on one side and the other tack on the end on the OPPOSITE side.. Check for 90* at this point and adjust - tack the middle - check again and adjust... Now weld a bit on ONE SIDE and then your next weld needs to be on the OPPOSITE side. The metal will pull to the side you welded on -- then will pull back to the direction your next weld was on.

It's all kind of hard to explain via these forums but trust me when I tell you - there's more to "welding" than just the bead.

The other thing amateurs do is they fit up the piece -- then start tacking or whatever. They never pick up a hammer and dolly, or whatever tool they need to use, and ADJUST the piece as they go. They just weld away - then when they're done they wonder why it doesn't look all pretty like the pictures of other guys work. You've got to "work" the metal as you go IF necessary... to keep warpage down - to keep the gap tight - and blah blah blah. It's not just fit once and weld it. This stuff takes some patience and some some eyeball time - and adjustment as you go.

[DOOM]

This thread makes me think we should offer a class or seminar for this skill. It's not hard, but just takes practice and experience. But having some weekend guidance would good.
__________________
Roger I would fly out for that in a heart beat!! I think its a great idea!!!And I would'nt care what it cost just to get some hands on training from the pros would be invaluable!!!!!!!!!!!

[parsonsj]

Originally Posted by Greg

The other thing amateurs do is they fit up the piece -- then start tacking or whatever. They never pick up a hammer and dolly, or whatever tool they need to use, and ADJUST the piece as they go. They just weld away - then when they're done they wonder why it doesn't look all pretty like the pictures of other guys work. You've got to "work" the metal as you go IF necessary... to keep warpage down - to keep the gap tight - and blah blah blah. It's not just fit once and weld it. This stuff takes some patience and some some eyeball time - and adjustment as you go.

So true. I know it took me some time under helmet before I started to work the metal as I went -- and I thought I was "cheating", or lacked the skill to cut the metal to fit properly as I went. Now I don't do much welding on outer body panels; my sheet metal welding is relegated to the interior and bottom of the car. So I don't use TIG. It's too hard to get all three hands needed into position when welding up a toe board from inside the car.

I think the reason that working the metal isn't as well-known as it ought to be is that the typical body panel replacement article in magazines doesn't cover it. I've not seen it, and most certainly the notion of MIG tack-welds followed by TIG finish-welding hasn't been covered.

jp

ps. BTW, great thread!

[ironworks]

Originally Posted by DOOM

__________________
Roger I would fly out for that in a heart beat!! I think its a great idea!!!And I would'nt care what it cost just to get some hands on training from the pros would be invaluable!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok Tomorrow morning and 1 million dollars. I will cover lodging and airfare and food.

[wellis77]

This thread has easily become one of the best I've read. Thank you to all who have contributed, and thank you to Mario for stepping out and asking the first questions. I have learned a lot and can not wait to get back to town Sunday night and start working on this stuff.

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by ironworks

Ok Tomorrow morning and 1 million dollars. I will cover lodging and airfare and food.

Mario -- I'd do it for a buck....

[ccracin]

This is a great thread. Especially for me as I am also trying to learn with the new Tig welder. I have been reading and practicing. Things are going better. I'm a visual person. Here is the result of the best I have done so far. I am far from happy, but mind you I've only burned about 4 filler rods with the TIG so far.



I spent a lot of time fitting the panel I made. It was good, but the second one is better. As usual. I am getting ready to start welding the second one. I have it tacked in. Look along the bottom. I was trying to keep everything fitting as I went using a hammer and dolly. I didn't make a weld longer than 1/2" at a time before cooling. I was also hammering the welds as I went to try and keep the panel from shrinking in. When I was done and started the grinding/sanding I realized the panel I added along the bottom was slightly proud. You can see this in the photo. Any suggestions as to how to work this out? A small amount of filler will cover as it is only about 5-10 thou. proud, but I would like to make it better. The same thing happened with the 2 plug weld spots you can see.

This brings me to my next question. What happens when you are butt welding sheet metal and you can't get to the back side to hammer the welds and work the joint? No matter how slow I go and how small the welds are, I almost always end up with the weld bead/HAZ low. Do you use a stud gun or something to raise that area? I will be getting to these types of welds very soon. That's enough for now. Any comments/advice good and bad will be greatly appreciated.

I don't mind others learning from my mistakes!

[GregWeld]

I'm going to let better body men than I answer these questions -- but I would say on the area being "proud" (high) after hammer welding is because you stretched the panel too much. You don't have to pound the weld perfectly flat to save yourself a lot of work with the grinder. 3 pounds of shizzaz in a 1 pound can. When you're fit up is really tight - you weld - you hammer flat - the metal that is hammered flat is going to GROW not shrink.

Ever heard of a shrinking hammer? They work if you know how to use 'em.

Hammer and dolly work is a black magic art form... I've seen people take a perfectly good panel and RUIN it because they just think you pick up and hammer and start banging away. They stretch the metal - leave hammer marks all over and then start trying to shrink it when they should have just left it alone! LOL

If you "pull" this area out with a stud gun - you'll then most likely end up with an oil can.

Ever heard of Bondo? Works real well on low areas... don't be afraid to use it. Personally - I'd prefer a low area over a proud one.

Not sure what the right answer is on the "can't get there to work the area"... I'm all for "do my best and skim coat it".

My first job ever was at Gateway Body and Fender... back when we brazed panels on. And we did lead work. My boss was always trying to teach me his art... and a "dent" in his mind was not a dent -- it was stretched metal. His job was to "shrink" the stretched metal back to it's original shape. He'd pick up a dolly and hammer and you could actually watch the metal coming back to the original panel shape in an area he wasn't even hammering on! He's hammering here and the metal over there was coming into shape. He did this with very little effort and just the feel of constantly using his hand on the panel. I never did pick up his gift for this. It's still a mystery to me.

[DOOM]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Don't forget to clamp your work! (even while practicing) Welding is more than just making a pretty little puddle -- it's as important, if not more important, to have the work NOT WARP!

Just for those reading this thread -- take the two strips Rodger suggests -- lay them flat side by side -- then just do a nice tack at one extreme end. Look at the other end - the gap will have grown!

To do this properly -- clamp the crap out of it (both strips) = tack one end - then the other end - then the middle - then split that again. Now the gap won't move on you.... BUT if you unclamped and finished your weld - the piece will warp... so you leave your clamps --- move them as required to work - and keep it clamped to the flat work space. Weld and cool and weld and cool and keep cooling before you unclamp. It will still warp but that's what you'd work out with a hammer and dolly if you're doing this on a body part.

Remember -- every time you melt (heat) the metal - that area GROWS - and that area also SHRINKS as it cools. The one little spot you melted - and then shrunk is going to move differently than all the other larger metal around the weld area. Clamping and controlling your heat is the way you're trying to control the movement as much as possible... but there is also WHERE you choose to place your welds - because HOW and WHERE you weld will also help counteract the movement.

To picture this in your head -- think of welding a "T" --- (I can't make the T upside down but picture it that way). SO make an inside corner weld on one side of the T and the T won't be straight anymore... but if you tacked the two ends and tacked in the middle = Tack one end on one side and the other tack on the end on the OPPOSITE side.. Check for 90* at this point and adjust - tack the middle - check again and adjust... Now weld a bit on ONE SIDE and then your next weld needs to be on the OPPOSITE side. The metal will pull to the side you welded on -- then will pull back to the direction your next weld was on.

It's all kind of hard to explain via these forums but trust me when I tell you - there's more to "welding" than just the bead.

The other thing amateurs do is they fit up the piece -- then start tacking or whatever. They never pick up a hammer and dolly, or whatever tool they need to use, and ADJUST the piece as they go. They just weld away - then when they're done they wonder why it doesn't look all pretty like the pictures of other guys work. You've got to "work" the metal as you go IF necessary... to keep warpage down - to keep the gap tight - and blah blah blah. It's not just fit once and weld it. This stuff takes some patience and some some eyeball time - and adjustment as you go.

Greg I've made every mistake you talked about!!