JCG Restoration & Customs 70 Challenger 2nd Test Car!

[preston]

>It takes no effort to stop the Mustang or tap the brake to set for turn in

Well, yeah, but you are incredibly strong and powerful compared to normal men.

[Flash68]

I don't get it either. I ran my car at 3500 lbs with me in it with manual brakes on the street and track (1500 total miles) for almost 2 years and loved it. Never will go back to power brakes.

I just hated the "mush" of the boosted brake cars I did drive.

Diff'rent strokes diff'rent folks I guess.

And yeah that Weld dude is POWERFUL.

[Teetoe_Jones]

I'll jump in on the f*ck power brakes bandwagon. When I owned the Chicane-LM Camaro (known now as BluBalz) it had manual everything- door locks, steering, brakes, & windows. I had not ever had a better braking or feeling car than that setup with the Alcon calipers; and it was not a heavy pedal press to get the vehicle stopping very fast.

Only one that came close to it was a 68 Camaro with a Hydratech boosted unit on it that Paul helped us setup. That thing was worlds better than any vacuum assisted car I've driven.

Ok. Back to lurk mode.

Tyler

[Flash68]

^^^

The man. The myth. The legend.

He lives.

[GregWeld]

I think the pads are the issue or the pressure isn't right at the caliper... which could be several things stacking up -- pedal ratio -- bore size -- balance.... and perhaps far too hard of a compound. We all want to think we're big time racers and need all this race stuff -- but frankly -- few of us dive into a corner the way race guys do... and we just don't build enough heat into the system..... some of these pad compounds want to see red hot rotors to work well.

Of course - as usual - I'm writing to evoke thought and research - I'm not a pad or brake expert and certainly can't drive worth a damn... just saying that I think there's something more going on here that is giving the hard pedal - or lack of stopping power - or too much effort vs not enough brake.

The manual brakes two piston front / single piston rear BAER brakes on my 4000 lb Nomad would throw you thru the windshield using your big toe... The small Wilwood system in the Mustang is awesome -- except that when driven hard you just begin to feel some fade (they're small - WTF! They can only take so much)... and even then they feel solid. The large by huge/giant 6 piston front / 4 piston rears - Wilwoods on my buddy Pierre's car are crap on the street. Takes way too much heat to get them to even begin to stop... and way too much pedal effort. I keep telling him - that's what you get when you're running race brakes on a grocery store drive.

If it was me --- I'd be putting a pressure gauge on those calipers and getting some numbers before I'd rip the system out and go power.

But then that's just me --- I know Cris is an expert at all this stuff so I'm just talking out my ass. LOL

I would ASSume the pad/rotors were properly bedded.... and that the compounds have been messed with (sometimes you have to get pads from somebody that DIDN'T make the brakes....).

[GregWeld]

Forgot my train of thought in the last post.....


The tiny little '33 Ford weighs 2975 lbs - runs 2 piston front - single piston rear Wilwoods.... with a Moal pedal assembly and dual CNC master and balance bar... THE BRAKES SUCK... The pedal is hard - takes too much effort and not enough reward given the effort applied. I told Roy he has the wrong master bore on the car... Not sure what's in there but whatever it is - it's wrong.

[Cris@JCG]

We have no brake issues with the Challenger! The brakes work good but want to make it easier to drive on the road course.. The Booster is not a band aid but an enhancement to improve on driving smoother & deeper into a turn to scrub off some speed.. Glad to see that your brake system works good for you on your Mustang..

Working for a brake company for 10 years.. I thought I knew a lot.. but when I started driving myself is where I finally realized that I had still much to learn.. Danny has taught me what it takes for brakes to survive a road course.. brake ducting, brake fluid, & most important brake pads.. Heat is your enemy on brake systems & deflection of components.. I continue to learn something new every day.. Karl is a pretty damm good driver & if I can improve his lap times with power brakes.. Then that is what he gets!

Everybody has different experiences or opinions with brakes & just like any other product that does not meet my needs or requirements.. I just take matters into my own hands! Sometimes manufactures make components so that they can be used in many different applications & the level of performance is not the same from one application to another.. I like components specifically to what my intended use is for ..

BTW- We have a full Aim Sports Data Acquisition that gives us brake bias readings..

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Okay - I seriously don't get putting power brakes on a car -- to me that's a bandaid for a poor braking system.


It takes no effort to stop the Mustang or tap the brake to set for turn in.... and this car has little tiny rotors and calipers (2 piston front and single piston Corvette style rears). The Mustang takes effort to DRIVE but doesn't take any leg effort to stop or slow down. Coming from a guy that used to be in the brake business -- I'm very surprised at this issue.

Originally Posted by GregWeld

I think the pads are the issue or the pressure isn't right at the caliper... which could be several things stacking up -- pedal ratio -- bore size -- balance.... and perhaps far too hard of a compound. We all want to think we're big time racers and need all this race stuff -- but frankly -- few of us dive into a corner the way race guys do... and we just don't build enough heat into the system..... some of these pad compounds want to see red hot rotors to work well.

Of course - as usual - I'm writing to evoke thought and research - I'm not a pad or brake expert and certainly can't drive worth a damn... just saying that I think there's something more going on here that is giving the hard pedal - or lack of stopping power - or too much effort vs not enough brake.

The manual brakes two piston front / single piston rear BAER brakes on my 4000 lb Nomad would throw you thru the windshield using your big toe... The small Wilwood system in the Mustang is awesome -- except that when driven hard you just begin to feel some fade (they're small - WTF! They can only take so much)... and even then they feel solid. The large by huge/giant 6 piston front / 4 piston rears - Wilwoods on my buddy Pierre's car are crap on the street. Takes way too much heat to get them to even begin to stop... and way too much pedal effort. I keep telling him - that's what you get when you're running race brakes on a grocery store drive.

If it was me --- I'd be putting a pressure gauge on those calipers and getting some numbers before I'd rip the system out and go power.

But then that's just me --- I know Cris is an expert at all this stuff so I'm just talking out my ass. LOL

I would ASSume the pad/rotors were properly bedded.... and that the compounds have been messed with (sometimes you have to get pads from somebody that DIDN'T make the brakes....).

[GregWeld]

Your build - your customer.... Not saying you shouldn't do whatever you feel like doing. Just saying that power brakes shouldn't do anything for you except to be able to run the pedal with your little toe instead of your big one.

I would find that my feet are way too busy to be trying to modulate a power brake let alone trying to trail brake one... but it's not my car. If I was only going to drive it on the street -- and I wanted a girl to drive it... then I'd put power on it. LOL

[Matt@BOS]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

Your build - your customer.... Not saying you shouldn't do whatever you feel like doing. Just saying that power brakes shouldn't do anything for you except to be able to run the pedal with your little toe instead of your big one.

I would find that my feet are way too busy to be trying to modulate a power brake let alone trying to trail brake one... but it's not my car. If I was only going to drive it on the street -- and I wanted a girl to drive it... then I'd put power on it. LOL

Not everyone can be as manly as you, Greg.

I personally find power brakes to be much better at trail braking since the pedal generally has longer travel and is soft enough that you can roll your ankle up, instead of trying to control how fast you lift your leg of the manual brake pedal.

On the other hand, I find it much easier to work up to your threshold of braking without locking up the brakes in a manual setup. I would flat spot all of my Camaros tires really badly with a booster.

It's all give and take I guess. If I had ABS I might consider power brakes in my '69. Whatever makes Karl most comfortable on the track is what should be in the car, I think.

[Track Junky]

What ever.....you guys can have your manual brakes.

Try playing with brake pads. Youl'd be amazed at what a really good brake pad will do for what you might think is a poor brake set up