Discussion about the actual resale value of a Pro-touring car

[hp2]

If I can buy a new ZL1 for $55k that does all these things, comes with a factory warranty, and can be serviced at any Chevy dealer anywhere, it would take one helluva nice 1st gen to beat the performance per dollar spent equation. What is the nostalgia of the 1st gen body worth over a late model? $10k, $20k, double the new price? If your selling a classic for more than a late model, you have already significantly narrowed your potential market, regardless of the options and performance involved.

[96z28ss]

Originally Posted by hp2

If I can buy a new ZL1 for $55k that does all these things, comes with a factory warranty, and can be serviced at any Chevy dealer anywhere, it would take one helluva nice 1st gen to beat the performance per dollar spent equation. What is the nostalgia of the 1st gen body worth over a late model? $10k, $20k, double the new price? If your selling a classic for more than a late model, you have already significantly narrowed your potential market, regardless of the options and performance involved.

If you had a 5th gen and 1st gen Camaro and each were purchased at the same price. The new ZL1 will depreciate at a much greater rate than a 1st gen Camaro.
That's what keeps me from buying a new Camaro.

[GregWeld]

I don't think "the hobby" is buying a new car.


And the more I think about the idea of trying to find a good "donor" -- build it - and then try to turn a profit on it... probably only really works for the home hobiest whose labor is free - working out of his "free" garage.

[dhutton]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

I don't think "the hobby" is buying a new car.


And the more I think about the idea of trying to find a good "donor" -- build it - and then try to turn a profit on it... probably only really works for the home hobiest whose labor is free - working out of his "free" garage.

This is what I was considering. I would like to continue to wrench on cars when I retire and this seemed like something that might work. I don't need to make a huge profit. I just want to keep busy doing what I enjoy. Biggest hurdle so far is finding reasonably decent project cars. They are snapped up quickly in this part of the country.

Don

[ironworks]

Originally Posted by hp2

If I can buy a new ZL1 for $55k that does all these things, comes with a factory warranty, and can be serviced at any Chevy dealer anywhere, it would take one helluva nice 1st gen to beat the performance per dollar spent equation. What is the nostalgia of the 1st gen body worth over a late model? $10k, $20k, double the new price? If your selling a classic for more than a late model, you have already significantly narrowed your potential market, regardless of the options and performance involved.

You will be lucky to get 35k for that ZL-1 next year.

[ArisESQ]

Originally Posted by hp2

If I can buy a new ZL1 for $55k that does all these things, comes with a factory warranty, and can be serviced at any Chevy dealer anywhere, it would take one helluva nice 1st gen to beat the performance per dollar spent equation. What is the nostalgia of the 1st gen body worth over a late model? $10k, $20k, double the new price? If your selling a classic for more than a late model, you have already significantly narrowed your potential market, regardless of the options and performance involved.

I can understand your point, but I think the majority of the people here put a much greater premium on the "nostalgia" that you mention. I just don't think it's quantifiable like that.

I've got a first gen Camaro because it's my dream car - not because I can justify the expense over a new Z28.

[hp2]

Originally Posted by 96z28ss

If you had a 5th gen and 1st gen Camaro and each were purchased at the same price. The new ZL1 will depreciate at a much greater rate than a 1st gen Camaro.
That's what keeps me from buying a new Camaro.

Originally Posted by ironworks

You will be lucky to get 35k for that ZL-1 next year.

Nobody said depreciation was a factor in this. However if it is, then what percentage of depreciate occurs when a stock 1st gen is highly modified with cut and weld changes that cannot be easily returned to stock? Does it depreciate, does it appreciate? Based on what I see on auction shows, the stock and resto-mod group seems will to pay appreciation. The highly modified jury is still 50/50.

Originally Posted by GregWeld

I don't think "the hobby" is buying a new car.

Hobby is a very good point, but again, the original question was value placed on sale as a means of business so someone can make a living building cars they love and still feed their family. I'd love to make $100k a year building stuff like my own junk, but the odds of that happening are about the same as me becoming a rock star. The hobby means different things to different people, some of whom the owning and not necessarily the working is the hobby.

Originally Posted by ill steez

I can understand your point, but I think the majority of the people here put a much greater premium on the "nostalgia" that you mention. I just don't think it's quantifiable like that.

I've got a first gen Camaro because it's my dream car - not because I can justify the expense over a new Z28.

Which highlights exactly what I was trying to imply. As hobbiests, we build what moves us, what fuels our passion. If you try to build cars that can be resold you have to step back from that passion and look at what moves the market in broader strokes if you truly want to make a living selling modified cars.

How many guys on here have that passion, understand the mechanics of getting there, and are well heeled enough to drop $100k on a 1st gen? I'd guess that is a very narrow market segment. However, there is a very large group who perceive the nostalgia of the 1st gen, have a passion for it, like the pro-touring look, and want to be able to drive that same car anywhere like they would a late model. they do not require nth degree handling, nor are highly concerned with the mathematics to get there. To that segment, they will compare the features and capability of that classic against a late model. These are not the died in the wool, hard core hobbiest like u son here and they won't give a flying flip through a rolling donut hole how big the disc rotors are or how the geometry is corrected on the a-arms . These are the guys willing to go out and get a loan on a car for a toy and pay someone for it. Like someone who wants to build modified old cars for a living.

I look at it this way, take car enthusiasts as a whole. That's a large market. Now split it domestic and import, that reduces the number in each category. Then split the domestics between classic and late model, another reduced number. Now slice that among the various manufacturers, smaller numbers. If you continue to slice it down to the point that you only build high end, highly modified, pro touring, 1st gen Camaros for $100k, then you have narrowed the market very significantly. Granted, pro touring 1st gen Camaros are probably the most popular car in that segment, but that's still, compared to the balance of the hobby, a narrow segment you are tring to attract and retain. How much saturation will it support, I couldn't begin to guess.

[ArisESQ]

Originally Posted by hp2

Which highlights exactly what I was trying to imply. As hobbiests, we build what moves us, what fuels our passion. If you try to build cars that can be resold you have to step back from that passion and look at what moves the market in broader strokes if you truly want to make a living selling modified cars.

How many guys on here have that passion, understand the mechanics of getting there, and are well heeled enough to drop $100k on a 1st gen? I'd guess that is a very narrow market segment. However, there is a very large group who perceive the nostalgia of the 1st gen, have a passion for it, like the pro-touring look, and want to be able to drive that same car anywhere like they would a late model. they do not require nth degree handling, nor are highly concerned with the mathematics to get there. To that segment, they will compare the features and capability of that classic against a late model. These are not the died in the wool, hard core hobbiest like u son here and they won't give a flying flip through a rolling donut hole how big the disc rotors are or how the geometry is corrected on the a-arms . These are the guys willing to go out and get a loan on a car for a toy and pay someone for it. Like someone who wants to build modified old cars for a living.

I look at it this way, take car enthusiasts as a whole. That's a large market. Now split it domestic and import, that reduces the number in each category. Then split the domestics between classic and late model, another reduced number. Now slice that among the various manufacturers, smaller numbers. If you continue to slice it down to the point that you only build high end, highly modified, pro touring, 1st gen Camaros for $100k, then you have narrowed the market very significantly. Granted, pro touring 1st gen Camaros are probably the most popular car in that segment, but that's still, compared to the balance of the hobby, a narrow segment you are tring to attract and retain. How much saturation will it support, I couldn't begin to guess.

I don't think anyone here suggested that the plan was to sell pro-touring cars at a high volume...
The question was: what the actual resale value of a pro-touring car with modifications is; if that resale can be determined based on the sum of the specific modifications; and what the "sweet spot" in terms of cost to modify to return on invest is.

That being said - I think there most definitely IS a market for these cars, and I think there definitely are people out there who will pay top dollar for a heavily modified pro-touring car, as long as the car is actually built well.

Coach builders like Singer have proven that people are willing to pay over $200,000 for nostalgia, as long as that nostalgia actually runs and drives reliably. I think many of Stielow's builds could fit this segment - particularly Hellfire and Jackass.

[dontlifttoshift]

Originally Posted by ArisESQ

I don't think anyone here suggested that the plan was to sell pro-touring cars at a high volume...
The question was: what the actual resale value of a pro-touring car with modifications is; if that resale can be determined based on the sum of the specific modifications; and what the "sweet spot" in terms of cost to modify to return on invest is.

The return is 40 to 50 cents on the dollar on a turn key car. The more you spend initially the lower the return. There are exceptions to that....

That being said - I think there most definitely IS a market for these cars, and I think there definitely are people out there who will pay top dollar for a heavily modified pro-touring car, as long as the car is actually built well.

Yep, that is what keeps the shops in business.

Coach builders like Singer have proven that people are willing to pay over $200,000 for nostalgia, as long as that nostalgia actually runs and drives reliably. I think many of Stielow's builds could fit this segment - particularly Hellfire and Jackass.

Now we get into the exceptions, a car built by Stielow (or any other big name) carries some pedigree, there is a value in a particular name being attached to a build. Warning: fictional numbers used for the sake of conversation ahead......Stielow"s Hellfire may bring may bring 300K at an auction like BJ, Donny's Belltire, identically equipped may do half that.

Setting aside the fact that I can't actually write a check that large, I would gladly pay 200K for a car build that is _exactly_ what I want but would never pay near that for a car that was _exactly_ what another individual wanted. Weld can relate I think, you can buy a '40 pickup done pretty nicely for 50K, a friend just bough one in primer, running and driving but needing work for under 15K.......but it wouldn't be Greg's truck and wouldn't be the way he wants.

Back to the OP, the only mod that pays you back is air conditioning. Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.

[ModernMuseum]

Originally Posted by hp2

If I can buy a new ZL1 for $55k that does all these things, comes with a factory warranty, and can be serviced at any Chevy dealer anywhere, it would take one helluva nice 1st gen to beat the performance per dollar spent equation. What is the nostalgia of the 1st gen body worth over a late model? $10k, $20k, double the new price? If your selling a classic for more than a late model, you have already significantly narrowed your potential market, regardless of the options and performance involved.

ZL-1's are lame.

69 Camaros are awesome.

End of story