People have touched on this but I think it needs to be specifically pointed out. Everyone drives differently. You have to set the car up for your driving style. That, or you have to retrain yourself how to drive. It might ultimately be a combination of both. However, there's also more than one way to go fast. Combine them all together and figure out what works for you. I still think it's best to listen to lots of different people and decide for yourself what will work for you and your car. This has been a good read after skipping over the bickering. Let's keep the tech up.
Trey, I totally agree.
When I was in racing, we didn't set-up cars to suit the driver. We set-up the car to be fastest & taught the driver how to drive it optimally. Every 1/10 of a second mattered. Our joke used to be, "Do you care how the car feels or how winning feels?" But in sportsman racing, track days, pro touring, etc ... I take a different approach, because the top goal is often having fun, more than winning. In that case, we do want to set-up the car to fit the driver. At the end of the day, we want the car to inspire confidence, be fun to drive & be fast. So we're not worried about 1/10 of a second.
Some may think I only do high travel/low roll set-ups today. But that's not accurate. In the initial consultation, I explain the pros & cons of the 4 common set-ups.
1. Conventional low travel/high roll (around 1" travel & 3° roll) - provides more grip & confidence on corner entry under braking. Allows the driver to drive in deeper & brake harder. But carries less mid-corner speed. Provides moderate corner exit grip.
2. Modern high travel/low roll (around 3" travel & 1° roll)- has less grip on entry. Requires the driver to brake earlier & softer. Provides more grip & confidence through the corners & carries more mid-corner speed. Provides superior corner exit grip.
3. Moderate travel & roll is an in-between set-up of the #1 & #2. Typically around 2" travel & 2° roll. Achieves a balance of the traits from #1 & #2.
4. Low travel/low roll (around 1" travel & 1-2° roll) - provides high grip on corner entry under braking. Has narrow sweet spot where the car turns well. If under driven, tends to push. If over driven, car is loose or free. Requires top notch driver feel & control.
After they understand these options & their traits ... then my client guides me on what they want. Most of my clients choose #2 or #3. But regardless, I know how to calculate the spring & bar rates ... if I have all the key info on the car ... to achieve whichever strategy my client wants. The choice doesn't matter to me, because I'm not driving it. All I want them to be is happy with their car. My joy is when they call me after running it & say the car handles amazing.
When I was in racing, we didn't set-up cars to suit the driver. We set-up the car to be fastest & taught the driver how to drive it optimally. Every 1/10 of a second mattered. Our joke used to be, "Do you care how the car feels or how winning feels?" But in sportsman racing, track days, pro touring, etc ... I take a different approach, because the top goal is often having fun, more than winning. In that case, we do want to set-up the car to fit the driver. At the end of the day, we want the car to inspire confidence, be fun to drive & be fast. So we're not worried about 1/10 of a second.
Some may think I only do high travel/low roll set-ups today. But that's not accurate. In the initial consultation, I explain the pros & cons of the 4 common set-ups.
1. Conventional low travel/high roll (around 1" travel & 3° roll) - provides more grip & confidence on corner entry under braking. Allows the driver to drive in deeper & brake harder. But carries less mid-corner speed. Provides moderate corner exit grip.
2. Modern high travel/low roll (around 3" travel & 1° roll)- has less grip on entry. Requires the driver to brake earlier & softer. Provides more grip & confidence through the corners & carries more mid-corner speed. Provides superior corner exit grip.
3. Moderate travel & roll is an in-between set-up of the #1 & #2. Typically around 2" travel & 2° roll. Achieves a balance of the traits from #1 & #2.
4. Low travel/low roll (around 1" travel & 1-2° roll) - provides high grip on corner entry under braking. Has narrow sweet spot where the car turns well. If under driven, tends to push. If over driven, car is loose or free. Requires top notch driver feel & control.
After they understand these options & their traits ... then my client guides me on what they want. Most of my clients choose #2 or #3. But regardless, I know how to calculate the spring & bar rates ... if I have all the key info on the car ... to achieve whichever strategy my client wants. The choice doesn't matter to me, because I'm not driving it. All I want them to be is happy with their car. My joy is when they call me after running it & say the car handles amazing.
I will attest to the FUN - FAST - CONFIDENCE feel of the car!!
What that allows me to do then - is to grow into being a better driver. We only do this VERY LITTLE... most guys do what? 3 or 4 track events per year?? Maybe with MONTHS in between?? How good do you really think you're going to be? Better to have the car be good and comfortable... because it will be plenty fast. Only thing I'm going out for is a big sh!t eating grin... and to hang with my friends. Rozelle or Hobaugh or Popp or Steilow or Pozzi.... they're going for the win. Let's face it -- most of us are not in that league. Doesn't mean that with a properly set up car you can't be competitive and be proud of your times... or win a local auto cross... And you'll also soon discover that all the parts in the world - that don't work in harmony - are just a giant pile of expensive parts. That's where the GOAL needs to be set - and the professional brought in BEFORE you buy a bunch of parts and toss half of them in the For Sale section... Or if you've bought the parts and aren't happy -- buying more parts without (yet again) selecting them correctly and without professional advice... is just wasting more time and more money. You're probably a pro in your business.... and don't you think that people that don't consult you FIRST are idiots?? Costing themselves time and money, when all they had to do was get you involved in the beginning??
I agree that most of us don't get enough track
time running 3-4 events a year. My viper buddy runs once
or twice a month
I also want to point out budget does dictate some of
the decisions on what we run. My Pantera is mostly set
For me. My firebird is another story. I put some brakes on
the car but needed bigger wheels and better tires before
the brakes could be finished. 4k for wheels 1500 for tires
Now I can do the better brakes. But I could also use some
better shocks. One of the Jri shocks is more than my current
Vikings. Also just spent 1600 on Pantera tires
I elect to keep the car running and slowly improve it
I am also figuring out how to drive the car the best way I
can. Every time I change things it gets better but far from
done. Years ago a new set of tires is what made it better and
we just drove it Bad handling or not and learned how to drive it faster
Change is good but sometimes seat time for now I think is
better
I have been tracking for the last 10-11 years and just started
to do more Autocrossing. For me it is a lot harder to Autocross
than go run a track Don't get me wrong I love tracking but I think
Autocrossing gives you less error and to me more feedback on
how the car is doing
As we say on my Pantera forum Flamesuit on
If it was EASY..... the fat chicks could do it! LOL
Totally agree Bob. As a "hobby" -- it's beginning to get right up there with airplanes (on the cost). EEEEEEHHHHHHHAAAAAAA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panteracer
I agree that most of us don't get enough track
time running 3-4 events a year. My viper buddy runs once
or twice a month
I also want to point out budget does dictate some of
the decisions on what we run. My Pantera is mostly set
For me. My firebird is another story. I put some brakes on
the car but needed bigger wheels and better tires before
the brakes could be finished. 4k for wheels 1500 for tires
Now I can do the better brakes. But I could also use some
better shocks. One of the Jri shocks is more than my current
Vikings. Also just spent 1600 on Pantera tires
I elect to keep the car running and slowly improve it
I am also figuring out how to drive the car the best way I
can. Every time I change things it gets better but far from
done. Years ago a new set of tires is what made it better and
we just drove it Bad handling or not and learned how to drive it faster
Change is good but sometimes seat time for now I think is
better
I have been tracking for the last 10-11 years and just started
to do more Autocrossing. For me it is a lot harder to Autocross
than go run a track Don't get me wrong I love tracking but I think
Autocrossing gives you less error and to me more feedback on
how the car is doing
As we say on my Pantera forum Flamesuit on
Greg,
I had my Mustang (Chet's now) completely redone
when I first bought the car.. springs, shocks, overides
and brakes... It was my first real track car so I wanted
something that was right before I went out there
Car was soft but would run anywhere on the track
so very easy to drive like yours... tried autocrossing it
once and to me soft is not the way to go in an autocross car
Now I am trying to figure things out as I go plus keep
the Firebird running.. I hate dead cars
Pantera is like your Lotus in handling department.. sticks
great but as you say do not let off in a turn or brake otherwise
it is hard to stop it from spinning.. I have only spun it once on
the track on cold tires and once in front of the world at Optima
Greg, I had my Mustang (Chet's now) completely redone
when I first bought the car.. springs, shocks, overides
and brakes... It was my first real track car so I wanted
something that was right before I went out there
Car was soft but would run anywhere on the track
so very easy to drive like yours... tried autocrossing it
once and to me soft is not the way to go in an autocross car
Now I am trying to figure things out as I go plus keep
the Firebird running.. I hate dead cars
Pantera is like your Lotus in handling department.. sticks
great but as you say do not let off in a turn or brake otherwise
it is hard to stop it from spinning.. I have only spun it once on
the track on cold tires and once in front of the world at Optima
Bob
Chet absolutely drives the wheels off that car! I've followed him enough to be able to make that statement! He needs to maintain it better - but that's a different discussion.
Here’s what makes me a Sutton Fanboi…. you have no idea how good it (the suspension) can be until you’ve done it - and then you kick yourself for ever having driven such a POS - when it could have been so good.
Only when you’ve driven “ok” or “bad” can you then compare to what is fantastic.
I’m no longer looking for anything “better” — I think this is as good as it can get, given my skinny tire leaf spring car (245's squared)… and the only reason I think that is, because I’m able to run guys down from half a track back before they can get two more turns in…. WTF more do you want than that for a “track day” car. I can say with fact that the CAR allows me to drive that way. It's not my skills. If I had skills, the car would be far faster.
Someone once explained tire grip with soft spring vs stiff springs to me like this.
When you walk across an ice skating rink, do you walk stiff legged or do you bend your knees and step lightly with each step?
I dont walk on the rink.....I skate this is me at 50 years old I still hustle, I carry a few more pounds, but when I bump those youngens around they give pops room next time....bend those knees!
__________________
Rod Prouty
My websiteAuto-cross 101
I'm not a Real Racer but I did spend a night in the Pozzi's motor-home Bangshift Stories
I’m not the smartest guy at the track … but when he goes home … I’m still there testing, tuning, learning & getting faster.
Let me explain this video and why I'm posting it AGAIN....
This is a SUTTON high travel low roll set up - leaf springs - 245 tires... big brakes... 590ish HP...
First LAP is under YELLOW - we're not allowed to pass at all under YELLOW... WE are not allowed to pass in CORNERS... When watching - you must realize that there are LIMITATIONS on these track days where you can pass... And I know this track well -- and sometimes its just not WORTH IT to take a pass.... you back out and pass when you want to.
There are many times when cars are holding me up -- you'll see instances where I get brake checked... where I could have gone far deeper into a corner and carried a higher corner speed. Remember we aren't allowed to pass in corners.
Watch how many times there are no cars in sight ---- and I catch them and then pass them with ease. This is NOT a horsepower issue... it's a "higher average speed" issue. The guys I'm passing are going as fast as they can - and doing the best they can... they're not braking and letting me by. NOBODY wants to get passed.
Near the end I run into a complete CF of traffic. There is ZERO effort to pass or get caught up in that.... so I just let 'em go - REMEMBER I HAVE RON SUTTON ON THE RADIO TELLING ME ABOUT TRAFFIC.
The whole time I'm on track he's working with me on stuff... he might be telling me to just back off and gain some speed (like a sling shot move) to go around someone... We're talking about corners and dissecting the track... and trying different lines and working on things the entire time I'm out there.
If you don't think this SUSPENSION IS WORKING WELL.... well then there's no helping you... LOL
Brian Hobaugh SCCA National Tour June 2014
First Hemi 'Cuda Convertible Ever Built
Short clips: Goodguys Pleasanton autocross and pit videos
Hybrid Mode
