Investing 102

[ErikLS2]

Originally Posted by Vegas69

Thanks, Erik!

I'd be seriously looking at your local market and making a firm decision on whether it's time to "Take your money and run". If the decision is no, you should be ready to ride out the next low cycle. I know commercial leases can run through cycles, but if that business was to fold, you could be left with a vacancy.

I'm on the residential side, but I have some commercial knowledge here. What seemed to happen with the last cycle was that tenants migrated into newer, nicer spaces for a similar outlay. That left many of the older buildings with vacancies.

Going back into debt or getting back into the market is EASY. Those liabilities and opportunities are plentiful. Timing dictates the latter...

Todd, I wish it were that easy, but it's a Walgreens store and it's in TX. The loans for these types of properties are kind of like bonds to the investors (lenders) in that they want all the return they signed up for at the outset. This means there's a significant pre-payment penalty, called a defeasance penalty. So, it rarely pays to sell (or refinance) early. The penalty on this property 4 years out from loan maturity was around $600K!! That's the price for getting a fixed rate loan vs. an adjustable rate. In the meantime, Walgreens is about as solid a tenant as you can get, it's a 75 year lease and unless this 100+ yr old company goes out of business it's guaranteed and it's NNN so there's nothing to do except make sure the money is in the bank every month. Oh, and we still get to depreciate the building and contents, even if Walgreens buys new ones!

Originally Posted by ironworks

Todd - Do you mind sharing some of the key factors your talking about in the real estate market. I'm looking at purchasing a the building we currently occupy and have found the open lease space ratio to be getting higher but not alot for sale just yet. But I'm wondering if this is the time. I think things are gonna go on sale and I seem to keep hearing that the sky i falling and alot of smart guys are prepping for market correction. CASH is KING. Just trying to learn all I can.

Todd gave you some good advice. Some of the bigger firms that would know what your building is worth are CB Richard Ellis, Marcus & Millichap, and Hendricks & Partners. All should have offices in your area and any of them would be happy to give you an opinion of value and tell you all you want to know about your local market. In your situation though I don't think I would have them handle the purchase/sale. I'm assuming that you know the current owner (you're making lease payments to them right?) so there's no need for them to do so and their contracts are great at protecting them but don't do much for you or the seller so you really need a lawyer to review the contract anyway, and they get a healthy commission, mainly for putting buyer and seller together and it sounds like you might already have that part handled. I would highly suggest if you want to buy it that you just find an experienced commercial real estate lawyer draw up a contract and have the seller's lawyer review it and negotiate that way. You'll be much more protected that way too.

You probably know this already but I would also add that if you can swing it to own the building the tax benefits can be considerable, you have the business LLC (or however it's structured) lease it from another LLC (or similar entity), both of which are you. You'd basically just move money from one bank account to another and deduct a lot from your income taxes along the way. How the rich get richer! I wouldn't suggest you have one entity own both the business and the real property, but I'm not a lawyer and Calif is especially unique in it's laws for most of this kind of stuff so do your homework. Good luck!

[glassman]

Originally Posted by ErikLS2

Todd, I wish it were that easy, but it's a Walgreens store and it's in TX. The loans for these types of properties are kind of like bonds to the investors (lenders) in that they want all the return they signed up for at the outset. This means there's a significant pre-payment penalty, called a defeasance penalty. So, it rarely pays to sell (or refinance) early. The penalty on this property 4 years out from loan maturity was around $600K!! That's the price for getting a fixed rate loan vs. an adjustable rate. In the meantime, Walgreens is about as solid a tenant as you can get, it's a 75 year lease and unless this 100+ yr old company goes out of business it's guaranteed and it's NNN so there's nothing to do except make sure the money is in the bank every month. Oh, and we still get to depreciate the building and contents, even if Walgreens buys new ones!



Todd gave you some good advice. Some of the bigger firms that would know what your building is worth are CB Richard Ellis, Marcus & Millichap, and Hendricks & Partners. All should have offices in your area and any of them would be happy to give you an opinion of value and tell you all you want to know about your local market. In your situation though I don't think I would have them handle the purchase/sale. I'm assuming that you know the current owner (you're making lease payments to them right?) so there's no need for them to do so and their contracts are great at protecting them but don't do much for you or the seller so you really need a lawyer to review the contract anyway, and they get a healthy commission, mainly for putting buyer and seller together and it sounds like you might already have that part handled. I would highly suggest if you want to buy it that you just find an experienced commercial real estate lawyer draw up a contract and have the seller's lawyer review it and negotiate that way. You'll be much more protected that way too.

You probably know this already but I would also add that if you can swing it to own the building the tax benefits can be considerable, you have the business LLC (or however it's structured) lease it from another LLC (or similar entity), both of which are you. You'd basically just move money from one bank account to another and deduct a lot from your income taxes along the way. How the rich get richer! I wouldn't suggest you have one entity own both the business and the real property, but I'm not a lawyer and Calif is especially unique in it's laws for most of this kind of stuff so do your homework. Good luck!

Erik, what is NNN? Also, thanx for the new word of the day, "defeanance".

On another note, while were talking investment stratagies,
I've been interested in purchasing some investment property here in the town of Dublin where my business is based. The buildings (as builts) and land here are too large for my business, just about everything starts at 2 mill and goes up from there. I just don't have the kohones to do it, it will be about 11,000 to 12,000 a month. And while we (the business) can swing it right now, i'm preparing for a slow down( i bought the business 20 years ago in a recession and went through the 09'/'10). So, using the past for guaging the future is what i'm talking about. We are in talks right now with our former landlord about relocating some of or all our business back to that site, for a savings of 60% less per sq ft.
Meanwhile, fully funding the companies pension(income tax differed), keep piling some cash into my diversified Dividend stocks, and continue to learn how to manage the growth.......thanx to this thread (Greg, yes i'm talking to you lol, thanx a BUNCH for you input!!!! Wish i would of heard it in my 20's LOL).

[ErikLS2]

Originally Posted by glassman

Erik, what is NNN? Also, thanx for the new word of the day, "defeanance".

NNN stands for Triple Net. It means that in addition to rent, a tenant on this type of lease also pays for basically all other expenses related to the property, i.e. property tax, common area management, and any building repairs including a/c units, roof, etc. All upgrades and repairs are still owned (and deductetd) by the property owner though, a nice side benefit. Basically the landlord/property owner has to do nothing other than make sure the money comes in every month.

Originally Posted by Vegas69

Sounds solid and complicated... Can't beat that tenant! I own NNN if you are referring to the stock.

Disclaimer: This is coming from a licensed real estate agent. ha A skilled agent can give you insights that could be a big negotiating factor. I do agree that an attorney is crucial for a commercial deal, but their focus is law, not market dynamics and what should be expected in a negotiation. Bottom line, the money you pay them could be a wise investment. The attorney will ensure the deal is sound.

I agree that in Rodger's case it would be wise to get a sense of the market from a licensed agent familiar with his type of property, but they do that for free. Since in his case there is already a buyer and a seller there's little else for the agent to do other than draw up a contract (which again mostly protects THEM) which each party should have a lawyer review anyway. If the agent handles the contract I would negotiate a much lower commission from the standard 5-6% which includes marketing, advertising, etc. I'm not against agents at all but on these commercial deals they do everything they can to keep the deal "in house" so they get both the buyer/seller commissions. I've done 3 fairly big deals and every one was a dual representation deal.

[Vegas69]

Originally Posted by ErikLS2

Todd, I wish it were that easy, but it's a Walgreens store and it's in TX. The loans for these types of properties are kind of like bonds to the investors (lenders) in that they want all the return they signed up for at the outset. This means there's a significant pre-payment penalty, called a defeasance penalty. So, it rarely pays to sell (or refinance) early. The penalty on this property 4 years out from loan maturity was around $600K!! That's the price for getting a fixed rate loan vs. an adjustable rate. In the meantime, Walgreens is about as solid a tenant as you can get, it's a 75 year lease and unless this 100+ yr old company goes out of business it's guaranteed and it's NNN so there's nothing to do except make sure the money is in the bank every month. Oh, and we still get to depreciate the building and contents, even if Walgreens buys new ones!



Todd gave you some good advice. Some of the bigger firms that would know what your building is worth are CB Richard Ellis, Marcus & Millichap, and Hendricks & Partners. All should have offices in your area and any of them would be happy to give you an opinion of value and tell you all you want to know about your local market. In your situation though I don't think I would have them handle the purchase/sale. I'm assuming that you know the current owner (you're making lease payments to them right?) so there's no need for them to do so and their contracts are great at protecting them but don't do much for you or the seller so you really need a lawyer to review the contract anyway, and they get a healthy commission, mainly for putting buyer and seller together and it sounds like you might already have that part handled. I would highly suggest if you want to buy it that you just find an experienced commercial real estate lawyer draw up a contract and have the seller's lawyer review it and negotiate that way. You'll be much more protected that way too.

You probably know this already but I would also add that if you can swing it to own the building the tax benefits can be considerable, you have the business LLC (or however it's structured) lease it from another LLC (or similar entity), both of which are you. You'd basically just move money from one bank account to another and deduct a lot from your income taxes along the way. How the rich get richer! I wouldn't suggest you have one entity own both the business and the real property, but I'm not a lawyer and Calif is especially unique in it's laws for most of this kind of stuff so do your homework. Good luck!

Sounds solid and complicated... Can't beat that tenant! I own NNN if you are referring to the stock.

Disclaimer: This is coming from a licensed real estate agent. ha A skilled agent can give you insights that could be a big negotiating factor. I do agree that an attorney is crucial for a commercial deal, but their focus is law, not market dynamics and what should be expected in a negotiation. Bottom line, the money you pay them could be a wise investment. The attorney will ensure the deal is sound.

[WSSix]

Congrats Todd and Don on being debt free. Keep up the good work!