DSE Subframe Press Release with pictures

[Steve1968LS2]

Originally Posted by XcYZ

That's not my point at all... I'm saying that I need the room to fit downpipes and wastegate plumbing. Packaging. Just another variable.

You really shouldn't have to justify what you do to your car. Like I said, sad thread.

[907rs]

Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2

You really shouldn't have to justify what you do to your car. Like I said, sad thread.

How true.

For those of you that don't like or have the need for the product, don't buy it.

[Ummgawa]

OK, everyone that does not fully agree with each other is a Butthole.

[EFI]

Originally Posted by Mkelcy

You missed my point. You DO need to modify/replace the front suspension on a first generation Camaro to get it to handle well. However, there is often a suggestion in this thread and others discussing the latest new part that, unless you have the part on your car, you can't be (1) fast, or (2) a real pro-touring car. See for example:

**Quote:
Originally Posted by EFI
I don't need this part, but I want it, and here's my reason why -
I'm building a PT car. And I'm building a PT car cuz I love the looks of the early camaro, firebird, nova, chevelle, cuda and others. But, with a stock front-end most of them handle like either a shopping cart or a tour bus.
I want the best of both worlds; the looks of a early muscle car and the handling of a modern day vette. - Dan

Bolding added by Mkelcy.

Somehow I don't think my G'modded, delrin bushed, Hotchkis sprung and swayed, fast steering box equipped stock subframed front end handles "like either a shopping cart or a tour bus." To suggest that it does is simply silly and/or ignorant. Similarly, a car using the ATS spindle or the SC&C tall ball joints/control arms, in each case on an otherwise stock subframe, can be made to handle extremely well.

If someone wants to say "I'm getting X subframe because it: (1) looks killer, (2) may be a slight improvement over what I could do with a stock sub, (3) shows I have money to burn, (4) is all the rage, (5) is a well made piece that I want on my car, even though not a big improvement in functionality, (6) allows me bigger front tires than I could otherwise mount," I'm cool with all of it. But if someone says "I'm getting X subframe because it is the only/best way I can make my car handle," then I'm sorry, they're simply ill-informed.

I think my reply was some what taken out of context. I was responding to being told by someone that "nobody needs this stuff" (and that anyone who buys it is a "sucker.") In my reply I was simply generalization towards being told - I didn't *need* something, and I was clarifying I didn't *need* it I simply wanted it and why *I* wanted it.

As I stated before, I'm fairly new to the PT world. But, I do have experience in the bike and boating worlds, two places where aftermarket parts make a big difference in performance, especially in steering/handling.

My bro had a '70 Nova and my best friend had a '71 Chevelle, both handled poorly with stock front-ends when compared to a 2006 Vette or Audi S4. Maybe it's a stretch to think my car will be able to burn up the mountain passes like a 2006 Vette, but it's what I'm shooting for, and I'm looking for a solution that will get me as close to that as possible.

Clearly a DSE subframe is not the only choice out there, and maybe after I've looked at all the options it won't turn out to be my first choice.

I've learned a ton of useful info from this thread, so thanks again to the people who have provided data and technical info.


- Dan

[Steve Chryssos]

Originally Posted by Mkelcy

You missed my point. You DO need to modify/replace the front suspension on a first generation Camaro to get it to handle well. However, there is often a suggestion in this thread and others discussing the latest new part that, unless you have the part on your car, you can't be (1) fast, or (2) a real pro-touring car.....

That cuts both ways. The folks who state that you don't need an aftermarket sub are suggesting that there are no real benefits to the upgrade when in fact the benefits exist. The gains are small and therefore represent a higher cost to value ratio than the stock subframe upgrades. But that holds true for all "next level" upgrades. The cost to go from point B to point C almost always is greater than the cost required to get from point A to point B. The cost to turn a 12 second car to a 11 second car, is usually far less than the transition of an 11 second car into an 10 second car. The net gain in either case is a one second reduction, but one task costs more than the other.

So I agree with you. You get more value from a stock sub upgrade than you get from a subframe swap. I just want to make sure that you--and everyone else--understands that the right subframe swap has benefits despite the fact that it costs more. There's more to it than just bling.

[Leadfoot1]

[QUOTE=Steve1968LS2]The only problem is that nobody said that a car is slow if it doesn't have these parts.. well nobody except Elky.

Well...i didn't take it to the word "slow" but on a rather larger understanding; as if you don't wear the "hot"parts your not doing it right.

What good info are we getting? Advice on how people should spend thier money?

Well, we got some specs out of some products that we might be able to talk about now (i hope), to understand better what we are doing in the future and guide our decisions, i'm not participating in this forum to discriminate choices people make, to each their own, 'just trying to understand why and on what basis, to make up my own mind. when someone comes up with a valid anwser (to MY justification standards) i'll be satisfied. Untill then, anyone who wants to chip in is welcome to valid their opinion, be it they like 'flippin cash or that they know wtf they are talking about....As long as it feeds my need for info, i'm down with that!

And the Stielow thing is a weak argument. How could he run the DSE sub if it only just came on the market?

He could had run any other on the market.....

I've never seen so many people over what other people are putting on thier cars..


Again, I don't care what they do to their cars...I'm gathering info for my own sake and evaluating the products as best i can from reading them infos here...from people that share the same passion, just not in the same manner from time to time.
.....

[Mkelcy]

Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2

What good info are we getting? Advice on how people should spend thier money?

I'm curious why you think a thread that discusses the pros and cons of the various front suspension alternatives and the relative cost of each is not "good info." We've seen threads that go on at length what it takes to be a "real P-T" car, but this one is useless?

XcYZ makes a good point that for plumbing dual turbos, rear steer can be a problem. I hadn't considered that because I hadn't thought about doing dual turbos. For the most part this thread has been a respectful exploration about what can be done to our cars and why it's done. No one is really debating the what, the debate rages about the why. If someone out there is considering an aftermarket sub because he or she thinks that's the only way to get good handling, then this thread is useful.

Originally Posted by Mkelcy

there is often a suggestion in this thread and others discussing the latest new part that, unless you have the part on your car, you can't be (1) fast, or (2) a real pro-touring car. See for example:
Somehow I don't think my G'modded, delrin bushed, Hotchkis sprung and swayed, fast steering box equipped stock subframed front end handles "like either a shopping cart or a tour bus."

Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2

Maybe you missed where he used the word "stock".. which your suspension is not. Or are you saying that a totally stock suspension handles great?

No, I was responding to a series of posters in this thread that seem to imply that if you don't entirely replace the stock sub, you can't get your car to handle well.

I don't particularly have a dog in this fight. I've got a modded stock subframe in my current driver, and I have a 21st Century sub ready to go into my second car. But I recognize that, putting aside other factors, including bling, the performance gains I'll likely get with the 21st Century sub probably won't dazzle me as compared to the modded stock sub.

[Mkelcy]

Originally Posted by streetfytr68

So I agree with you. You get more value from a stock sub upgrade than you get from a subframe swap. I just want to make sure that you--and everyone else--understands that the right subframe swap has benefits despite the fact that it costs more. There's more to it than just bling.

And I agree with you. I've never questioned whether there are benefits to an aftermarket sub. (See above where I mention that I've got one (and not a cheap one at that) sitting in my shop ready to go on my second car.) But I think it's important to clearly understand what those benefits are; and so far as I'm aware (and I could easily have missed a valid comparative test) no one can yet say that one of the benefits of an aftermarket subframe is improved lap times over a properly modded stock subframe.

[Steve1968LS2]

Originally Posted by Mkelcy

I'm curious why you think a thread that discusses the pros and cons of the various front suspension alternatives and the relative cost of each is not "good info." We've seen threads that go on at length what it takes to be a "real P-T" car, but this one is useless?

Pros and cons based on what? so far it's only based on $$.. I've seen very little data in this thread and lots of assumptions.

And the threads about "what it takes to be a real P-T car" are just as pointless.. everyone want to define stuff and segment the hobby rather than just enjoy the moment. I guess it's human nature.

No, I was responding to a series of posters in this thread that seem to imply that if you don't entirely replace the stock sub, you can't get your car to handle well.

Maybe you can show me where this was said??? The example you quoted said that a STOCK suspension handled badly.. and somehow from that you took "the entire subframe has to be replaced or your car sucks" from that?

[jonny51]

This argument is a complete joke,who would put a bunch of money into an old POS?Yeah I said POS,these cars really do nothing very well except look cool.So each and every guy on this site with a musclecar has it because it looks cool!You can buy a late model corvette(saving big time on your $$$$$$) that will run circles around damn near any aftermarket suspension on these old cars.
So just pipe down and go spend your savings on your build and buy your wife a big rock!