What is "Best"?

[trapin]

I'd say you have the best of everything right there. Sounds like a killer build. Especially the engine.

That's about all I can add.

[tyoneal]

Perhaps I have missed something.

Did I outline too much? Was what I outlined possible of accomplishing the desired results?

Would there be other componants that would do the same thing better?

Any advise would be welcome.

Thanks,

tyoneal

[Beast2831]

you are good to go I may not have the knowledge of the others but, I think you will get the results you want with the equipment that you listed. Go for it.

[Mean 69]

Your parts list describes WAY more Pro-Touring/Street Rod than it does for Road Racing. Few people can feather the throttle on a 750 HP rat motor on the road course appropriately, especially because they make so much low end power. Further, though I have not seen the front setup, I can state without question that there is either a significant compromise in the actual suspension, or the steering, unless there is a significant engine setback, which I do not believe to be the case with the DSE setup. Sorry, you can't fit a rack and pinion underneath the engine, with a very low ride height (necessary for low COG that race cars need), and really "good road race" suspension in a front engine American car, there isn't room. Something will have to give, and does, on every one of the front offerings out there (I can hear the groans already, but I'm not afraid to debate this at all) that don't move the engine back at least 6", or more in the case of a rat motor.

Four link rear suspension systems are only used by Road Racers that haven't figured out that they bind, by design, in roll, and that this is not a good thing. Either that, or for some reason, they are bound by budget, capabilities, or rules. Maximum Motorsports, and Griggs Racing have built empires replacing the rear triangulated four link setup in the late-ish Mustangs for years with a torque arm setup, go to any American Iron race and you'll see. On top of all of that, the DSE setup is a parallel four link setup, not a triangulated one, which is better, but still not "best."

It sounds like you have a really cool project going, and the chances are you will be really happy with it when it is complete. But again, wht you describe is a really hot street car, that will probably make it around the track pretty decent if tuned correctly, with a good driver. Even without good tuning, it probably won't do anything scary, because the typical builder of such a car won't push it to the limits anyway, for fear of destroying the car in a wreck, knowing how much money was spent on it (less so for folks that pay others to build their cars, by the way, they are more prone to pushing "too" hard...).

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, please don't take it that way. Your real question should possibly be phrased more like "will my current setup allow my car to pull a g on the skipad (which is NOT a road course, by the way, not even close), a g in braking, and a g in acceleration?" To answer that, you left out the very most important factor: tires. Yes, you stated the size, but the type is far more important than just the size of the tires. On street tires? Maybe, if you are really lucky and can put enough front camber into the car to keep it from pushing "too" much, given the fact that you are running a rat motor in the stock location, but nothing short of a shaved Mich PS2 will likely allow that. R-compound tires? Uh, if you can't with these, ask for your money back from all of the suppliers that you bought from, assuming you have tuned the car. Slicks? Demand your money back, assuming tuning....

I have to ask though, if you have already made up your mind on the setup, why are you asking the question in the first place? Or are you still in the decision process and are looking for opinions on your proposed setup?

Whatever you do, just have fun with the project, and don't worry too much about the "numbers," especially if you aren't developing your own system for commercial sale. Just enjoy your car. But please, and I mean this respectfully, don't call it a Road Race car.

Mark

[tyoneal]

Mark

Thanks a Million for your remarks, that is EXACTLY what I was wanting to hear. As you probably figured out, I have some ideas, I have a budget, and hopefully by this email you will get the idea that I am open minded about the correct ways of accomplishing a task.

The last time I built a car was in the late 1970's. From my list of items, it would have been a hell of a car. It still would be a hell of a nice car but I want to investigate making it more of a handling demon.

Please, feel free to list what you would do to correct this, and why the change would work. This includeds the engine setup.

I do encourage everyone to jump in. I really want to get my hands around the, "Pro-Touring", idea, both the mild to the very extreme. I think this would be very informative to a lot of people. I know I really only have a true vague idea what it really means.

I have wanted 25+ years to take the time and money to built a really fun car and I would like to do it right the first time.

I appreciate any and all earnest replies.

Thanks,

tyoneal

[Steve Chryssos]

There is very little room for superlatives in the world of Pro-Touring.

A story: Many moons ago, I took my "finished" car with early ARDF (pre-wayne due) clip to a well known chassis builder to get "fixed". He asked (grunted) the obvious question: "Whattya wanna be able to do with this thing?" My initial rant of an answer?
"I want to to dive into any corner at insane triple digit speeds!"
"I want to out corner any Lamborghini, Ferrari or Porsche!"
"I want to exceed 1g in lateral acceleration on street tires!"
"I want to autocross, to track day, to drag race!"
"I want to go to the moon and back!"
"I want!, I want!, I want!......"

The fabricator had dollar signs in his eyes and my buddy interrupted and quietly said ".....No you don't."

Stunned, I asked my buddy to clarify. His response was that I want a very capable street car. A hot rod. Not a race car. "Pick one" he said, "because there are light years between the two equations. That the car might be raced is almost inconsequential. You will be racing a hot rod.

The fabricator agreed. In the end, we decided to leave the frame rails, lower A-arms and uprights intact and modify the existing design from there. Upper shock mounts, upper A-arm mounts, engine location, rack location were tweaked. Upper A-arms were swapped. Springs and sway bars were changed..stuff like that.

But the most important part of the exercise was that I came to grips with my true objective: To build a capable street car. A hot rod. The formula you described will yield an extremely enjoyable street car. And that's a good thing.

[tyoneal]

I do think you are right, this is the formula of a very fun car.

That being said, what would make it handle better? Is this the same as making it more fun to drive? (Loaded Question)

How far can you go and remain practical for the street? (Please be specific)

Thanks,

tyoneal

[zbugger]

Originally Posted by tyoneal

How far can you go and remain practical for the street? (Please be specific)

That's almost impossible to be specific on. It's really all about the owner and what you're willing to deal with/how much attention you are willing to pay to your car. There's guys with close to race cars on the street that think what they have is fine. Others have different taste and will disagree. As for how far you can really go, in the end, it's all up to you.

[Steve Chryssos]

Originally Posted by tyoneal

That being said, what would make it handle better?

The formula specified wil provide significant gains over stock 60's technology. Beyond the formula specified--or one that is similar--gains for a street car would come in small percentages relative to the changes made from stock 60's technology. And those advanced changes are rarely realized on the street. The biggest gains would come from:
1) Driving school.
2) Extensive chassis reinforcement
3) Multiple sets of wheels and tires: Street, Road Race/auto-X, Drag
4) Multiple sets if springs
5) A reduction in engine output from your specified formula.

Originally Posted by tyoneal

Is this the same as making it more fun to drive? (Loaded Question)

Depends on the venue. We keep coming back to this: Street or Track? You don't have to pick one, but you must prioritize. More fun on the track might mean (depending on your personal preferences) less comfort. Not less handling. Less comfort.

Originally Posted by tyoneal

How far can you go and remain practical for the street? (Please be specific)

Again, subjective. Optimized spring rates and shock settings for the track wil negatively impact ride quality. Large bumps, potholes and the up and down motion from speed bumps will feel like you are in a covered wagon or a cement truck. Race tracks are not known for these types of surfaces. Short sidewalls will transmit each and every road irregularity through the car. Every pebble. Every expansion joint. A roll cage will make it more difficult to get in and out (especially out) of your car. With a roll cage, servicing the cockpit (especially under the dash) will be a real pain in the ass.
Inversely, a good, firm street setup will seem unstoppable on a back road. 75 mph in a curve recommended at 30 will be a blast. On/off ramps will make you giggle. But that same setup will usually reveal itself as "soft" on an Auto-X course where steering input is most frequent. And on a road course, cornering loads will elicit the same result.

No amount of number crunching or parts research can compensate for good practical driving experience and wrench turning. The internet has facilitated research to the point where it is easy to get hung up on data, comments, and opinions. Don't fall into that trap. Prioritize your goals, do you best to choose parts and systems that make you happy, and pull the trigger. Spend the money, make the parts fit, cry about the do-overs, and--most of all--drive the car. By your third build, things will come into focus. The car you are planning now will merely constitute practice. You will more than likely derive pleasure from the overall experience. But over time, you will learn and do things differently. You'll learn way more from seat time than from building and buying. Like a junkie, you will either kick or want more.

There is no such thing as BEST in hot rodding. Only good, better, and different. No speculation there. Just practical experience.

[Mean 69]

It is really easy to go too far in terms of turning your street driven car into a "race car," and it is important to be honest with yourself before you get into the trap.

Case in point, my 69 Camaro. Granted, it is a development vehicle for our suspension systems, so it needs to have some of the track goodies by default. Most aren't too terrible, but some really make it a pain to drive the car on a frequent relaxed basis. Getting in and out of the car is a pain, I use Cobra Suzuka racing seats, unreal for the track, comfortable enough for moderate drives, but a complete pain to ingress/egress. Five point racing harnesses are really handy, but once strapped in, I can't even reach over to grab the garage door opener. Better open or close the passenger window before you take off too! The engine emphasizes mid range and top end power to make it manageable on corner exit on the track, still makes a great torque but really spanks up top. 400 ci, normal aspiration. Cool? Well, it idles at 1k RPM, only makes 9" of vacuum, so power brakes require a hydrobooster. I took it off about a year ago to convert to manual brakes for better feel/modulation, and now it is a total pain on the street because you can't really get heat into the pads to give good bite, so you really have to pay attention around town. The car is really loud, has no A/C, and so on.

The rear suspension is set. We have enough adjustment in our system to keep all of the important attributes in check for a variety of ride heights, and can bias the setup towards certain conditions really easily, all of the hard work has been done. Totally happy on the track, totally happy and comfortable on the street, done. Putting big tires on a first gen is "easy" in the back, and honestly it's not terrible to do the mini-tub deal to other cars even though the stamped parts aren't available.

The front is much harder, you'd like to put as much tire on the car as possible to better balance front to rear grip, in hopes to maximize total grip of the car. As I eluded to previously, solving the front issues is very, very difficult when you start to put big rubber on the car. Many of the weaknesses of typical front suspension systems are masked by the smallish forgiving tires that are usually used, going bigger really exaggerates things, fast. It's a heck of a lot more difficult than making a narrower frame to allow better turning radius. One thing I noted immediately when going from a 245 tire to a 275 tire up front on the 69 is that the power steering pump couldn't keep up. I replaced it with a race piece, and the "problem" was solved. For a while, that is. What wasn't obvious is that even though "I" am not working terribly hard to steer the car, the steering components are, and as a result they will wear faster. My wonderful AGR steering box got far looser pretty quickly. Tramlining (tendancy for the car to follow grooves in the road, etc) is greatly increased and very frustrating. And there's more but hopefully you get my point.

What to do? Well, I'm building another car using the lessons learned not only from my present car, but from input from dozens of others' experience. This one is a 70 Camaro, and I fully expect it to outperform the 69 in virtually every way, but will do so in a far more refined and civil manner. Again, the rear stuff is set, already installed as a matter of fact. For the front, we are doing a massive design effort, and the setup will be quite a bit different than what is currently available. Will it work? I think so, but we won't know until it's done. If it doesn't we'll learn, and apply the lessons. It will have "very" large front tires, by the way. Engine will be a 427 LS based motor, most likely, six speed, and you can bet it'll have one of Paul's terrific Hydroboost setups. Power windows too, and very likely A/C too. Sparco Milano seats are far more user friendly, and the car will have two sets of seat belts.

We have a couple more cars in progress too, a 68 Satellite crusier that will be perfect for trips to Vegas, power tour, etc. At some point, we'll build a track only car. It'll be very light, very safe, and very fast. But it won't be a street car, that's for certain.

M