How much is $17 trillion? Visualized for reference.

[parsonsj]

Originally Posted by Tony

The policy of govt stimulus and creating more fiat money is in full effect.. What are you warning us about?

True enough, though I don't think I'm warning anybody. I'm just trying to round out the discussion a bit. Let's go back to the title of the thread, which implies that $17T is bad. Just... because. It's worth a discussion to see if there is more to it than that. It would be better for us in the long term if we were to do more stimulus to put millions of people back to work, and then pay down the debt with a healthy economy.

We've done it before: after WWII, and again after the 80s.

[Bucketlist2012]

Originally Posted by parsonsj

Many message boards tend to have echo-chamber tendencies, and this one is no different. But I must point out that there are millions of people, nations even, of people with views different than one's own. We ignore the possibility of being wrong at our own peril.

OK , my statement was a little harsh and wrong..

I guess what I should have said, is many believe that there is Inflation..My other statement was kinda Hypocritical on my part.

The reason I say that I am wrong is I believe that the government thinks exactly like you, and will print and spend more money.

So in fact my statement was way off...Many do think like you, and I was wrong.

The cool thing is that I have set my Investment for a crushed and devalued dollar. So while I may think it is the wrong thing to do, I plan that they will do exactly as you say that we should do. I do it solely for an Investment strategy and not for my personal beliefs.

So I won't be in any peril at all. In fact every time that Stimulus is used, my assets soar.. So I am not worried if my personal beliefs are wrong, I will still profit from it.

But again, my statement was wrong, and many do think like you, so sorry about the harsh comment...But if I am wrong I win, and if I am right, I win.

What I personally think may be bad for the country means nothing to how I invest.

So either way it goes I am ready..I don't Invest according to my beliefs, but according to what I think the powers that be will do...

I guess if you would warn people about anything, it would be to invest for more Stimulus. And against the Fiat Currency. That may be a tip to tell people.

[ErikLS2]

Originally Posted by parsonsj

We've done it before: after WWII, and again after the 80s.

I've enjoyed this discussion although I havn't got much to contribute, both sides make some good points. But, isn't this point in time "just another one of those things" that happens in our system that eventually corrects itself and we then see another period of greater prosperity? Since we can't really do much about it, I guess we should just try to educate ourselves on how to survive periods like this.

[sniper]

Originally Posted by Bucketlist2012

No one believes what you believe.

Our nation is currently lead by people who share his beliefs.

Originally Posted by realcoray

I am pretty aligned with what JP believes (or at least his level headed approach), I just don't feel like arguing about it.

What I will say is that I heard something on NPR about a study that demonstrated the fairly obvious concept that people choose to access news/media that aligns with what they already believe.

Granted you could say I was listening to liberal government funded NPR because I believe X or Y, and just ignore whatever I have to say but the source shouldn't matter. Doesn't it just make sense that people would do that?

My point is only that it's good to listen to people with other opinions, and it's pretty weak to attack people that have different views because you just may be wrong.

Sounds like you have your fingers in your ears yelling, LA, LA, LA.
I mean come on, there is no arguing in this thread. What is wrong with differing views expressing them?

Originally Posted by parsonsj

I was hoping we could discuss these matters using facts -- but we seem to have trouble even agreeing on those.

As stated earlier, facts are undisputed. All the figures a governments use will have some sort of twist to them including or excluding data, to achieve their desired results.

Originally Posted by parsonsj

Many message boards tend to have echo-chamber tendencies, and this one is no different. But I must point out that there are millions of people, nations even, of people with views different than one's own. We ignore the possibility of being wrong at our own peril.

Would it be possible this is not an echo chamber but people who might just actually agree with one another with a view that differs from yours?

What do we know is that spending trillions of dollars DOES NOT make Americans better off.

[parsonsj]

Originally Posted by JP

Many message boards tend to have echo-chamber tendencies, and this one is no different. But I must point out that there are millions of people, nations even, of people with views different than one's own. We ignore the possibility of being wrong at our own peril.

Originally Posted by Sniper

Would it be possible this is not an echo chamber but people who might just actually agree with one another with a view that differs from yours?

Exactly.

[parsonsj]

Originally Posted by sniper

What do we know is that spending trillions of dollars DOES NOT make Americans better off.

Let's go down a different path; maybe this will generate some good discussion. Here's my question: how much is the US worth? What value do we place on our country? Not just the infrastructure and hardware. Not just on bridges, roads, national parks, and aircraft carriers. The discussion about the national debt often goes hand in hand with what we owe. I'm asking this question: what are getting for our $17T? When we buy a car on credit, we get something. The same is true for the national debt. We are getting something --

Is it worth it?

[camcojb]

Originally Posted by parsonsj

Jody -- let's look at data:

http://ycharts.com/indicators/us_cor...ion_rate/chart

John, put yourself on a fixed income and you'll see that the chart is not accurate. I have no idea how or where the numbers came from, but I'm not buying it. My friend is very structured and actually started tracking food costs over a year ago. Identical items have risen WAY more than 2-3% that the chart indicates.

[sniper]

Originally Posted by parsonsj

Let's go down a different path; maybe this will generate some good discussion. Here's my question: how much is the US worth? What value do we place on our country? Not just the infrastructure and hardware. Not just on bridges, roads, national parks, and aircraft carriers. The discussion about the national debt often goes hand in hand with what we owe. I'm asking this question: what are getting for our $17T? When we buy a car on credit, we get something. The same is true for the national debt. We are getting something --

Is it worth it?

Debt in and of itself is not always bad.
But it's not just the static number. The spending year over year is incredible. But if debt spending was as great as people like Krugman make it sound, then one must conclude that if 17 trillion is good, then 100 trillion must be astounding. Think about what could be done with that.
Washington has a "debt ceiling". Supposedly, because now they just raise it to fit what they want, not what they need. There are Zero controls on spending.

If spending was a good thing at all costs, why not pay people to dig holes and others to fill them in? That would be a boom to the economy.

Here are some "maybe" facts to chew on.

Government dependency jumped 8.1 percent in the past year, with the most assistance going toward housing, health and welfare, and retirement.
The federal government spent more taxpayer dollars than ever before in 2011 to subsidize Americans. The average individual who relies on Washington could receive benefits valued at $32,748, more than the nation’s average disposable personal income ($32,446).
At the same time, nearly half of the U.S. population (49.5 percent) does not pay any federal income taxes.
In the next 25 years, more than 77 million baby boomers will retire. They will begin collecting checks from Social Security, drawing benefits from Medicare, and relying on Medicaid for long-term care.
As of now, 70 percent of the federal government’s budget goes to individual assistance programs, up dramatically in just the past few years. However, research shows that private, community, and charitable aid helps individuals rise from their difficulties with better success than federal government handouts. Plus, local and private aid is often more effectively distributed.


You ask, "is it worth it"? I guess that depends on if your a Paul or a Peter?

[parsonsj]

Originally Posted by Jody

John, put yourself on a fixed income and you'll see that the chart is not accurate. I have no idea how or where the numbers came from, but I'm not buying it. My friend is very structured and actually started tracking food costs over a year ago. Identical items have risen WAY more than 2-3% that the chart indicates.

I don't understand what a fixed income has to do with any of this. The inflation rates on the chart I referenced are the official government numbers: they come from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. They aren't some sort of private made-up thing:

The Consumer Price Index is a comprehensive report on prices in the United States. It contains national, regional, and local data broken down into population subgroups. Prices are collected from 87 urban areas from 23,000 retail and service establishments. Rent data are collected from approximately 50,000 landlords or tenants. The Consumer Price Index is the most widely used measure of inflation.

I'm sure your friend means well and believes what he's telling you. But I doubt he's sampled from 23000 retail establishments from 87 urban areas. I think most reasonable people would go with the BLS on this one.

[parsonsj]

Originally Posted by sniper

You ask, "is it worth it"? I guess that depends on if you're a Paul or a Peter?

I'm an American. I don't really understand the tribal resonance of that response.