The Ultimate Front Subframe Solution?

[tyoneal]

To All:

I know by now I'm probably beating a dead horse, but, I really want to get some thoughts on what I see as a hole in the subframe after market.

As you know I have been asking a lot of questions regarding the different subframes out on the market. From what I can tell, Kevin at, "California Auto Restoration", has the ultimate front subframe for first generation Camaro's for these reasons.

-Everything can be made adjustable, or in a sense can be made into a true, "Road Racing Suspension". (Kind of a Mild or Wild option)

When I spoke with him he sells a subframe and depending on your wants, needs or wallet, he can add as little or as much as you want.

The Big difference is, That HE DOES the install AND your looking at around $4-5 Grand for the install. (Certain additions drive the price up from there) I'm not saying thats a bad deal or he does anything other than top notch work, but the headache as I see it is, I live in Texas, he works in California. You can add about $2500 for shipping on top of everything else.

The Subframe has some really kick ass parts on it, and the customers specs as little or as much as they want, AND they can run 315's on the front end if they want to go with the 335's in back for an ultra cool look.

If someone sold a subframe that could hold up to 315's on the front, then sell SC&C, or whichever made the adjustable upper and lower control arms that you would recommend or prefer, or they could simple put on DSE, Hotchkiss, Speedtech, etc. parts for those that wanted fixed or non-adjustable Control Arms. For the springs someone could do the same run DSE or top of the line Eibecks. (For all I know DSE might be better than Eibecks, this is for the sake of explanation purposes only) Same with Shocks which are already segmented in the market place based on adjustability, performance, etc. R & P Steering, same thing run everything up to the Appleton rack. Same with Brakes, Wheels ect. You could have your own inner fenders for your kit as well. The kit could come assembled or unassembled as your time and expertise allows. It would also be really cool if you could offer thing like a splined sway bar that could be changed out, up to an "in" cockpit adjustable sway bar. (The Oval track parts are really cool)

Since many people already have some of these parts already, (UCA and LCA, Shocks, springs etc) They could purchase the subframe and NOT have to re-buy these parts all over again unless they just wanted to, and it would give them the option of updating at a later date.

From what I keep reading there are a number of subframes on the market, but for the most part DSE, AM are some of the top tier and everything else at different price points below them. Essentially, all the major performance sub frame suppliers have targeted the same demographic segment.

In the current subframes you see prices from $3995 to $7000, with basically similar bells and whistles. From what I see there is a significant market gap between the $7000 DSE Subframe, and the $12,000 Subframe sold by CAR. The difference, other than money, is the move from a standard front subframe (Street/Track), to a more race inspired piece.(Track/Street) For instance, when people ask about a PT rear suspension, the choices range from modified leaf spring system, 4 link, triangulated 4 link etc. etc. usually ending up with the Lateral-Dynamics 3 link, or some other specialized, adjustable, high tech system that is truly race inspired, or simply race equipment set up for the Track and Street. It's not necessarily the easiest to install (Just Bolt in), but rather it's engineered for performance first with packaging being of secondary consideration.

As most people know by now, I have the LD 3-link and it is terrific. I am always surprised at, "What it allows be to get away with when taking some pretty, "Spirited", corners.

That said it seems logical that a front subframe should be on the market that brings the same level of, "performance, adjustability, tuning etc.", to the Market. Together these would yield a truly hard core foundation for a top of the line PT car.

You can get buy engines that make 1000+ "street-able", horse power, You can buy and install the infinitely adjustable 3-link suspension. You can buy Carbon Fiber panels now for your cars. It seems to me that the other part of the suspension should be available for those who want the very top end of technology.

Of course these are two totally different markets, and I think there is a good possibility for a company to tap into and capture this market segment.

This segment certainly isn't huge, but there are a number of engine builders making and selling 1200+ hp, $35,000 engines that wind up in a, "Ultimate Pro Touring", application, and there apparently is enough volume to make a buck.

Packages could be put together that would really give the buyer a choice of some of the best technology on the market. There is lot of oval track suspension parts that would really be trick on a PT car.

Do I need all the adjustability and technology, and huge 315 front tires? Hell no, however if I had a way of buying it complete or a bit at a time if I wanted to, without having to ship my car across the country, I would do it in a heartbeat.

As I mentioned above, true racing technology is slowly creeping into the Pro Touring scene. If I was told 15 years ago that 1000 hp pump gas street engines would be available along with the high tech, weight reducing carbon fiber body panels, 3 piece racing wheels etc., I would of called someone a damn liar, but it's here and it's not even unusual to find these items at local car shows or track days.

I would really like to be able to buy a Front Sub for my car with that class of performance possibilities, whether I do it all at once or over a period of years.
===========================================
What are your thoughts about this?


Thanks for reading.

Ty O'Neal

[68protouring454]

ty, you cannot run a 315 with stock dse or other tube arms, no matter if the frame will allow it, the rims will hit the arms very quickly not allowing any turning radius, among other things, so now you buy that aftermarket frame, you need different arms already, so to base a frame off stock style arms is not the best idea. there are better options out there, and to have really good adjustability you do not need sc/c arms or howe arms etc, its how the susp geometry was set up, its very easy to set a susp up with 1.0 to 1.5 camber for street then have it go to 2.0-2.5 for track duty, caster is typically fine non adjustable just as long as there enough of it, i like 5-7 degrees, other then that as long as the susp has been computer designed, and the rack width, height been designed, along with proper height steering arms, you will end with a very nice chassis.
also before calling a chassis the ultimate, do you know anything other then parts about it? ie, camber gain, initial camber adjust ability,caster, caster adjust ability, bump steer? these things should be known in a properly designed chassis.
goodluck
jake

[TravisB]

Kinda hard to say something is the ultimate when know one.....will publish there numbers. Not CAR, not ART, or DSE. I guess they all think they are building top secret space shuttles or something. Someone needs to come up with one thats not affraid to post the numbers.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Well, first of, I love ya like a brother Ty, but your over thinking this my friend! I will bet there is little chance you will ever see the outer limits of any good subframe / Lateral Dynamics combo, so it is all pencil pushing.

The DSE and Art morrison are both proven perfromaer in real world seat of the pants testing, but as travis said the numbers are not readly available. But we do not race numbers anyway.

SpeedTech Subframe does what you are asking for, uses stock type components. And Blake is going to publish the numbers.

But my guess is you will be thrilled with whichever frame you choose, as long as you avoid the obvious "street rodder frames" out there

[68protouring454]

Originally Posted by ProdigyCustoms

Well, first of, I love ya like a brother Ty, but your over thinking this my friend! I will bet there is little chance you will ever see the outer limits of any good subframe / Lateral Dynamics combo, so it is all pencil pushing.

The DSE and Art morrison are both proven perfromaer in real world seat of the pants testing, but as travis said the numbers are not readly available. But we do not race numbers anyway.

SpeedTech Subframe does what you are asking for, uses stock type components. And Blake is going to publish the numbers.

But my guess is you will be thrilled with whichever frame you choose, as long as you avoid the obvious "street rodder frames" out there

frank sounds good, however why has he not posted the numbers? the frames are available for sale correct?
i bet he does not have them yet.
jake

[ProdigyCustoms]

Originally Posted by 68protouring454

frank sounds good, however why has he not posted the numbers?
jake

They absolutly will post the numbers when they are ready to go to market. But are not going full bore yet until some final details are worked through. I give them a lot of credit for holding off until it is exactly where they want it. We are also doing R and D at our end fine tuning the one in EmptyNest. I am not going to over step my boundries and post any numbers, but I can tell you from personal measurements the Camber gain is excellet, the bump steer is acceptable, and it has 295s on it right now with full lock to lock turning. Parsons and I are going to be working out some details after the PRI show in a couple weeks.

[tyoneal]

Frank:
Well, first of, I love ya like a brother Ty, but your over thinking this my friend! I will bet there is little chance you will ever see the outer limits of any good subframe / Lateral Dynamics combo, so it is all pencil pushing.

The DSE and Art morrison are both proven perfromaer in real world seat of the pants testing, but as travis said the numbers are not readly available. But we do not race numbers anyway.

SpeedTech Subframe does what you are asking for, uses stock type components. And Blake is going to publish the numbers.

But my guess is you will be thrilled with whichever frame you choose, as long as you avoid the obvious "street rodder frames" out there.

TY:
Likewise, thanks for the kind words.
You are right. I am over thinking it from a certain perspective, and I am certain you are also correct that I would never see the outer limits of any good sub frame.

The main difference between your statement and my perspective is that, while being technically correct in your statement, you are addressing it from a, "Practical", point of view. "Is it Practical to seek the Ultimate Street Sub Frame for my car?"

The answer is a big fat, NO!"

On the other hand I have moved past that line of thinking and am addressing from the, "Their is nothing truly practical about 99% of these cars and the stuff we put on it or in it. I'm pencil pushing because as unpractical as I'm being with my current questions, I'm still in a search to find the, "Ultimate Subframe", from my perspective for my car".

I concede, you are 100% correct in your statement. True practical performance has nothing to do with it.

I would like to build the best car I can. (From my perspective) This is absolutely not just transportation. It's an exercise in creating something I/We are passionate about. Bleeding edge technology coupled with classic looks. I am a kid with a big imagination, and a desire to try and fulfill that dream. Nothing more, Nothing less.

This is a project that gets my mind off of the mundane part of the world I live in, and replaces it with something, in some cases, that makes it worth waking up for, in the morning to go to work again.

If I can possibly manage it from a possibility standpoint, and a financially standpoint, I want to build it just because it's fun!

I want a Car to have 315 mm, Big Fat Meats on the Front just like the race cars I remember seeing as a kid. So I can stop them with my practical 6 Piston, 14 inch, two piece rotor brakes, so I can feel the bite of a $400, 200 mph speed rated tire, mounted on a beautiful 3 piece wheel with a powder coated center.

I really need this because if I didn't have it, I might not be able to slow my $35,000 Classic, 550 hp engine, down from 45 mph, to 20 mph as I enter that school zone.

You have to be safe you know, and of course, "It's all about the Children!"

..... and you wonder why I'm so concerned about finding the right sub frame? ;-)

All kidding aside, I'm really just looking for what I would like, not what I need or could use. Yes, I will be taking Driving lessons, but I know needing this technology is ridiculous. Truth be known a properly set up stock sub frame would probably be rarely maximized, if ever.

Is this understandable?

Ty

[Stuart Adams]

Originally Posted by TravisB

Kinda hard to say something is the ultimate when know one.....will publish there numbers. Not CAR, not ART, or DSE. I guess they all think they are building top secret space shuttles or something. Someone needs to come up with one thats not affraid to post the numbers.

What numbers do you want to know?

[TravisB]

Originally Posted by Stuart Adams

What numbers do you want to know?

Personally I dont need any of them.....but if I was going to sell a product based on its performance I would publish things like camber gain per in, static caster, bumpsteer, roll center, instant center, etc etc

Its not like these numbers are top secret anyway....anyone with some fab skills, some good friends and a couple computer programs can figure out a good suspension set up that will work for them and there needs. So why not say our sub gains .65 per in, caster is 7 degrees, and bump is less than one. Guess I just dont understand why they dont.

[wiedemab]

I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for, but here is what DSE has posted on their site.