Pro-tour or build a race car?

[Payton King]

I thought I would throw this out there for discussion. I want to limit this to mid 70's cars and before. There is no question that you can take a new C6Z06 with mild mods or stock for that matter and it will dust about anything we can build.

We all like the older body styles and most on this site and others are trying to build the ultimate pro-tour car. When do you finally get to the point and say...I might as well build a race car and make it street legal?

I am going to be off on these numbers as I am taking a guess. Take a first gen Camaro and put in Lateral Dynamics 3-link. $6000 for the kit and installation. 21st Century sub frame with all the trimmings $6000
Brakes front and rear $3000. Beater 69 for $6000. Cage it, sub frame connectors, replace floors and you are all over $25,000. This is before body work, panel replacement, etc just a roller

Granted that I live in NASCAR country, but I could have a roller built without the cage, to my track width, wheel base. Full floater on the rear with a 3 link. Normal NASCAR style front...for about $8000 minus brakes.

No need for a body. Just drop Dynacorn or whomevers sheet metal over the roller and start hanging panels and building a cage. Depending on how hard core you are, seems like a way to go.

So I pose this question...is this the next step in pro-touring?

[syborg tt]

Originally Posted by Payton King

So I pose this question...is this the next step in pro-touring?

I think this may be the next thing.

After i complete the truck project i am going to look at doing something a little less expensive. Something with a crate motor that will run all day long and be as reliable as snot. Not exactly sure what body i plan to use but i know that it will have at least 4 seats so i can at least take it out and enjoy it with the family.

so i am all for Pro-Touring with the ability to cruise it and enjoy it.

[ironworks]

I'm sure some people will take it that far to have the ULTIMATE. But I see it as having some creature comforts and a balance between riveted in sheet metal floors and no insulation, to having a pretty solid car that has floor insulation and has a solid floor, and you don't have to crawl through the window, and you could have a passenger or even a back seat.
I guess maybe the difference is do you want to have a conversation and drive fast or do you want to drive faster by yourself and crawl through the window to get in.

There is something to be said about a car that runs just as good as it looks. In some ways protouring is to transam series as prostreet was to NHRA. Most people had big huge tires and a stock 350 under the hood. You were really bad ass if you had a crazy engine also. It is just the same with pro-touring, most people will have mild LS engine or sbc, or fords. Not to many have the twin turbo triple throw down million horse gigawatchy.

I wonder when sprint cars will catch on and every one will put some big ass wing on the roof of their car. haha

[ccracin]

Originally Posted by Payton King

I thought I would throw this out there for discussion. I want to limit this to mid 70's cars and before. There is no question that you can take a new C6Z06 with mild mods or stock for that matter and it will dust about anything we can build.

We all like the older body styles and most on this site and others are trying to build the ultimate pro-tour car. When do you finally get to the point and say...I might as well build a race car and make it street legal?

I am going to be off on these numbers as I am taking a guess. Take a first gen Camaro and put in Lateral Dynamics 3-link. $6000 for the kit and installation. 21st Century sub frame with all the trimmings $6000
Brakes front and rear $3000. Beater 69 for $6000. Cage it, sub frame connectors, replace floors and you are all over $25,000. This is before body work, panel replacement, etc just a roller

Granted that I live in NASCAR country, but I could have a roller built without the cage, to my track width, wheel base. Full floater on the rear with a 3 link. Normal NASCAR style front...for about $8000 minus brakes.

No need for a body. Just drop Dynacorn or whomevers sheet metal over the roller and start hanging panels and building a cage. Depending on how hard core you are, seems like a way to go.

So I pose this question...is this the next step in pro-touring?

I think you are on track (No Pun Intended). I can buy a complete rolling LMS car for about 6-7K. That includes a quick change, 3 Link, Coil Overs, dry sump system, brakes, seat, power rack, gages, rad, and fuel cell. With my past racing history, this type of car is high on my next project list.

Lets raise a couple eyebrows. There is no reason costs for the same components piece meal for racing should all of sudden double in price when you build a pro-touring street car. I'm talking about spherical rod ends, suspension tubes, shock brackets, BRAKES (This is a big one) etc. Most times when you look at racers, they have some mechanical skill and knowledge that allows them take these components and assemble them into a functional package. It seems companies assume that because they are marketing to the average Joe on the street they can charge high prices for the same components. I understand there is engineering and development that has to be paid for, (I'm an Engineer) but there is with the racing components as well. Look at tubular Camaro lower arms for example, DSE $590 a pair, UB Machine $250. Camaro Uppers, DSE $650, UB Machine $250. I just saved $740 on Control Arms alone. These are not "Matched/Engineered Kits" just control arms? These are just a couple of examples that seem a bit rediculous to me. It seems right now with this hobby if you build a product and market it as the latest greatest cool part someone will pay whatever it takes to get it. Although I just can't get over the control arms. Circle track racers have been building and using these for 20+ years, cool yes, latest greatest NO. I'll stop here and trip down off of my soap box. Again, not to upset or offend anyone here trying to make a living selling these parts, just something to think about. Fire Away, I'm ducking behind my mouse!!!!!

[Payton King]

Maybe it is me thinking if I build something really bad ass I could never use its full potential on the street...so just take it one step further and make a track car.

Then I got to thinking. Why not build a track car with a race frame, hang my sheet metal of choice on the car....but insulate the floors and put some creature comforts and try and have the best of both worlds.

Obviously this is not my idea. I really liked what Charlie Libby did with his 66 Fairlane and the Mustang that he did. Go to the home page of this site and take a look at both of those cars. Incredible! I have seen the 66 upclose and that is one unbelievable ride.

Very good point taken on the race frames and cost...that is what got me thinking. I don't want a full blown race car as I don;t have the time or the cubic bucks it takes to race. But track days 8 or 10 days a year with a car that could take the abuse and not have me loose my mind if I dent a panel, but also cruise the power tour and to local runs... it is very tempting

[dqhemi]

The circle track stuff is much less expensive because of the volumes. There are lots and lots of these cars built and many piecs get standardized.

As far as building a race car goes, there are many levels of that as well, most are not cheap if you're talking about real race cars. My experience has been that if you are really going racing you will burn through money much faster than doing it for the street.

Just like cars, there is shade tree mechanic stuff and real high end. For example - multi-disc clutches, gun drilled axles, real fuel cells (can/kevlar bladder/foam/rollover valve), etc. If you look at hard core racing pieces they will almost always be way more expensive than their street counterparts. ven if you look at road race vs. circle track you will generally see much more exotic stuff on the road racers.

We're just about to start building a track only car with our Level II Suspension/Brakes on it so we can seriously abuse it and also keep it safe. Much of what we've done is taken direct from current road race level product and technology.

John Buscema
XV Motorsports
www.xvmotorsports.com

[LateNight72]

Dallara Ex-Eddie Cheever Indy Race car
Street Legal for a few of us.

Already Set-Up for the Track
This would be the more realistic of the two listed.

[Steve Chryssos]

I think of the distinction in terms of a sliding scale:

<<<Grand Touring on one end; race-car-for-the-street on the other>>>.

A good example of an OE Grand Touring car is a Bentley Conti GT. Grand touring cars are expected to deliver comfort and effortless performance. There is nothing easy or comfortable about race cars for the street. They are raw and unfiltered. As long as that is true, the majority of enthusiasts will lean towards the GT end of the scale. It might not look that way since cars like F-Bomb and Rupp's Camaro are presently in the spotlight. But these cars will continue to occupy the minority.
And as stated, don't think these cars are much easier or cheaper to build. For example, large sums of money were just spent to have TLT Racetek convert the Libby Fairlane to dry sump. Dry sump is, in itself, expensive. Try to seamlessly integrate a dry sump system with AC and a serpentine system and the costs go up exponentially.

There simply is no part numbet for the conversion. So the majority of enthusiasts will continue to take the path of least resistence. And that means GT cars.

[Steve Chryssos]

Build one of each.