Ousci

[71RS/SS396]

Originally Posted by rickpaw

Dont know what's coming for 2016, but they did have GTV (vintage) class, for vehicles 1989 model year or older. So that takes out the old cars vs. modern car argument. It just seem that not many older cars participated this year, and I'm not sure why.

Tu

They only use the class format at regional qualifiers, they don't use that at the invitational in Vegas.

[71RS/SS396]

Originally Posted by Jay Hilliard

There should be 2 classes, Vintage and Late model. As Tim mentioned, 1992 and back are basically aero bricks compared to 1996-2015 cars.

Aero drag and downforce starts to play a big part of handling at 100 mph and up.

To put in perspective, back in 1969-1970, it took 620HP in a Dodge Daytona (which was very aerodynamic for 1970) to go 200mph and now it only takes ~450hp to go 200mph in a latest NASCAR speedway cup car.

Jay, the aero only matters on the road course it's not really a factor on the auto-x or speed stop.

[GrabberGT]

Originally Posted by 71RS/SS396

Dannie, imho the reason you're not seeing the vintage cars out in force is, most know they have no chance of being competitive driving old iron. It's sad to see the genre of cars that built this series dwindling in participation. I think it will continue in this direction until this is just another racing series with late model cars competing. I understand why Optima is doing it this way, they want to sell batteries to the largest audience they can and there's a larger pool of late model cars than vintage cars.

I have to disagree here. I think its more of a numbers game. There just arent as many of us out there as we'd like to think. As mentioned earlier in this thread about Goodguys autocross participation, (quoted below) just add the cost of attending these events, the stigma of "my car isnt good enough", purchase a helmet, fire extinguisher and other gear, the increased wear and tear on the vehicle, the fear of damage... and you see how the pool of GTV cars shrinks even further.

Before you go off in the direction of what a great value these events are, consider this... Most of the GG autocross participants are paying nothing to autocross. Outside of the Pros/Sponsor cars, most of them are at GG anyway and are doing the autocross just for the heck of it. If they only get to make 4-5 runs a day, that great! They're not seriously racing anyway and it costs them nothing in addition to do it.

Looking at it this way, I understand the numbers. Its going to take some time to build the Pro-touring base to the levels we are expecting at these events. Until then, lets keep the GTV class alive by ensuring the participants' efforts are acknowledged. It takes more to bring a GTV car to the event than any other class. The other classes all start off with performance. Just upgrade tires (or dont) and you're ready. A GTV car is a re-engineered and built car. (on a side note, shouldnt the D&E scores reflect this more? Really... we swap out our suspensions, motors with EFI, cooling and fuel systems, interior functionality and creature comforts, body mods... and we're scored within a single point of a late model with upgraded tires and lowering springs???)

Originally Posted by Chad-1stGen

Regarding the number of GTV guys... The population of protouring cars in general is already a fairly small segment of the overall car hobby. Look at Goodguys events. These events are targeted towards older/vintage cars and draws thousands and thousands of cars to each show and when you walk around how many of them are trully build with a focus on protouring/handling beyond some big wheels and bling?. I'd say well under 10%. Of that group less than 100 actually participate in the autocross portion.

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by 71RS/SS396

Greg, I'm not real sure where you think they catered to vintage cars last year, this basic format/rule set has used since this series started. I know what it costs to do these events trust me. It's their sandbox and they should do what they want since they're footing the bill. In it's current configuration the lightweight AWD cars are going to eventually dominate this event. I'm not sure how you fix it or if they should, but I don't ever see a vintage car being competitive at the invitational ever again.

I get what you're saying Tim --- I was really referring to the series beginnings -- when car turnout was actually pretty poor.... which opens the door to finding attendees anywhere you can. If the series took off and was full to the point of having waiting lists of "PT cars".... then we probably might not (might is key here) be seeing all the newer stuff.

[71RS/SS396]

Originally Posted by GrabberGT

I have to disagree here. I think its more of a numbers game. There just arent as many of us out there as we'd like to think. As mentioned earlier in this thread about Goodguys autocross participation, (quoted below) just add the cost of attending these events, the stigma of "my car isnt good enough", purchase a helmet, fire extinguisher and other gear, the increased wear and tear on the vehicle, the fear of damage... and you see how the pool of GTV cars shrinks even further.

Before you go off in the direction of what a great value these events are, consider this... Most of the GG autocross participants are paying nothing to autocross. Outside of the Pros/Sponsor cars, most of them are at GG anyway and are doing the autocross just for the heck of it. If they only get to make 4-5 runs a day, that great! They're not seriously racing anyway and it costs them nothing in addition to do it.

Looking at it this way, I understand the numbers. Its going to take some time to build the Pro-touring base to the levels we are expecting at these events. Until then, lets keep the GTV class alive by ensuring the participants' efforts are acknowledged. It takes more to bring a GTV car to the event than any other class. The other classes all start off with performance. Just upgrade tires (or dont) and you're ready. A GTV car is a re-engineered and built car. (on a side note, shouldnt the D&E scores reflect this more? Really... we swap out our suspensions, motors with EFI, cooling and fuel systems, interior functionality and creature comforts, body mods... and we're scored within a single point of a late model with upgraded tires and lowering springs???)

I've been attending events all over the country regularly for 6 years, not just usca events. Until a few years ago the participants were largely vintage cars. Since capable drivers started showing up in late model cars and winning the tides have changed in that regard, Karl Dunn, Randy Johnson, Brian Hobaugh, and Chris Jacobs all switched to C5 vettes, why, because they can be more competitive in them. As far as the DE part of the event I think it's stupid and has nothing to do with a racing series, most of the top tier cars have gotten so far away from a real street car that it's a joke to pretend that they are.

[71RS/SS396]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

I get what you're saying Tim --- I was really referring to the series beginnings -- when car turnout was actually pretty poor.... which opens the door to finding attendees anywhere you can. If the series took off and was full to the point of having waiting lists of "PT cars".... then we probably might not (might is key here) be seeing all the newer stuff.

Mark my words... the lightweight awd's are going to own this series. I've already moved on from attending these as several of the other "regular attendees" have as well. It just doesn't make economic sense to me to attend to be mid pack since I have double the cost with Deb participating as well. I can run for the fun of it and spend $4700 for my membership for the entire season at VIR, have 20 track days (with a top shelf catered lunch) and get a minimum of 2.5 hours (usually more) of actual seat time and have maybe 10 cars to run with on a 3.25 mile track that is one of the best in the country. That works out to less than $250 a day for both cars. I only have to travel 1 hour, can sleep in my own bed, and eat at home, pretty easy decision for me. I'll save my out of town excursions to hang out with my friends for Goodguys where the savings in entry fees will pay for most of my food and lodging for the trip.

[rustomatic]

I'm glad to see somebody approaching this topic with a rational cost analysis relative to the cost of regular club-type track days. For autocross time (plus speed-stop, if you don't mind burning up your equipment in the stop box), USCA offers good stuff, so long as you're not paying for the full weekend. As for the track experience, so long as you live within reasonable distance of a track or two, the price (of participating in a USCA event) is just not all that great. Sometimes, people's competitive nature just creates a grotesquely mediocre fight to be king of the dipsticks (there's another, better 16 Candles term, but it would be dirty); when you come to this conclusion, and you're not one of those who's determined to put a dog in the cock fight, you find a more realistic venue for having fun speeding (like a regular track day, which usually offers more track time than most people/cars can take) . . .

Originally Posted by 71RS/SS396

Mark my words... the lightweight awd's are going to own this series. I've already moved on from attending these as several of the other "regular attendees" have as well. It just doesn't make economic sense to me to attend to be mid pack since I have double the cost with Deb participating as well. I can run for the fun of it and spend $4700 for my membership for the entire season at VIR, have 20 track days (with a top shelf catered lunch) and get a minimum of 2.5 hours (usually more) of actual seat time and have maybe 10 cars to run with on a 3.25 mile track that is one of the best in the country. That works out to less than $250 a day for both cars. I only have to travel 1 hour, can sleep in my own bed, and eat at home, pretty easy decision for me. I'll save my out of town excursions to hang out with my friends for Goodguys where the savings in entry fees will pay for most of my food and lodging for the trip.

[gerno]

Originally Posted by rustomatic

I'm glad to see somebody approaching this topic with a rational cost analysis relative to the cost of regular club-type track days. For autocross time (plus speed-stop, if you don't mind burning up your equipment in the stop box), USCA offers good stuff, so long as you're not paying for the full weekend. As for the track experience, so long as you live within reasonable distance of a track or two, the price (of participating in a USCA event) is just not all that great. Sometimes, people's competitive nature just creates a grotesquely mediocre fight to be king of the dipsticks (there's another, better 16 Candles term, but it would be dirty); when you come to this conclusion, and you're not one of those who's determined to put a dog in the cock fight, you find a more realistic venue for having fun speeding (like a regular track day, which usually offers more track time than most people/cars can take) . . .

Agreed with these points as well. I prefer running track days, it give me more seat time in an event I want to participate. Good Guys is frustrating because the cater to the Pros and you sit around a lot. Local AX is a lot of work all day for 5-6 runs which makes GG better. It's up to each person.

This last weekend I drove in my first Lemons race. You want to talk about getting some track time with competition, it's a pretty good way to do it. I ran the shortest driving stint due to blowing a clutch and having to swap it out but still got 1hour 45min of non stop seat time. Others on my team ran for 2.5-3 hours. Not to mention this was while going head to head with other drivers which was awesome. It was a blast and definitely something I'll do again.

I'm also seriously considering NASA CMC or AI. For the cost to make my 72 competitive in other events I can buy a true NASA race car that's safer than what I have and have a blast. Not saying I won't still compete in other areas, I just don't think I'll be putting a huge effort into it going forward.

[GregWeld]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...... I'm sorry.... but I've been watching these events - helping at these events - hauled cars to these events.... pimped people to go to these events... I love the people that put them on... and those that participate. It's ALL good car stuff. But then.... I go drive my track cars at a track event.

Yesterday I was prepping one of them for Laguna Seca - after I took the tire rubber off with Mothers 3R (racing rubber remover) - I then got the buffer out to clean up the paint a bit more behind the rear wheels. The whole time I'm cleaning and going over the car with the Adams detailer - I'm thinking to myself - man this car looks great for a race car. I'm pretty sure I paid less for it in total, than some of the cars owners that run these events paid for their paint jobs. So that "what it cost" argument just kills me. Really? Some people pay 4 to 6 grand just for their wheels... and we're discussing what it costs to run your car for a weekend on some of the most famous race tracks in the country?? LOL

Does anyone that runs ANY event ever think about the cost of blowing a motor? A tranny? A rear end? Chewing up a nice set of tires? Oh - how about an off track - or eating a wall?

If 4 or 500 bucks is killing you.... better find a new hobby.

[71RS/SS396]

Originally Posted by GregWeld

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...... I'm sorry.... but I've been watching these events - helping at these events - hauled cars to these events.... pimped people to go to these events... I love the people that put them on... and those that participate. It's ALL good car stuff. But then.... I go drive my track cars at a track event.

Yesterday I was prepping one of them for Laguna Seca - after I took the tire rubber off with Mothers 3R (racing rubber remover) - I then got the buffer out to clean up the paint a bit more behind the rear wheels. The whole time I'm cleaning and going over the car with the Adams detailer - I'm thinking to myself - man this car looks great for a race car. I'm pretty sure I paid less for it in total, than some of the cars owners that run these events paid for their paint jobs. So that "what it cost" argument just kills me. Really? Some people pay 4 to 6 grand just for their wheels... and we're discussing what it costs to run your car for a weekend on some of the most famous race tracks in the country?? LOL

Does anyone that runs ANY event ever think about the cost of blowing a motor? A tranny? A rear end? Chewing up a nice set of tires? Oh - how about an off track - or eating a wall?

If 4 or 500 bucks is killing you.... better find a new hobby.

Greg, it's not $4-500 for me, it's $1,000 just for entry fees, then there's food, lodging, and fuel... not hard for it to turn into a $3,000-$5,000 weekend depending on the distance traveled and that's if nothing breaks on the cars. I'm seriously thinking about selling one of our cars and buying a used stock car for track days.