Budget '69 Camaro Track Car - NO WHINERS!

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by Vegas69

The rich bastard has a pro crew chief, what's next, Ron Fellow's in the passenger seat at all the events?

I agree Greg, I'll add driving skill and at what level you are pushing the car. Since you are older and more experienced, I see you as a more patient racer that doesn't abuse the tires. I would think you could get by with an A6 more easily than a 10/10ths guy or one with poor chassis balance. For me, it would be what gives me the best consistency over five, twenty minute sessions.

I'm learning patience Todd...

Your statement about the difference of 10/10ths vs the way I'm running is a major factor. I want more, or as much, grip as I can get - without driving at 10/10ths.

The brake rotor temps are another "tell"... he shoots the temps when I come in so we have a basis to tell us where the brakes are - not only the bias front to rear - but the temp overall. I'm not using a lot of brake - because I'm not pushing the car that hard in to the corner - so the temps are rather "cool" relative to what the pad that was on the car wants to see. That pad wants higher temps to work. Well - I don't drive to that pads characteristics --- so we'll put in a pad that operates where I'm at.

Basically - I think I drive more like a Miata... or maybe a Buick.... IDK LOL

[Vegas69]

The tweaking was the part I enjoyed about my car more than anything except for the using. It's really incremental.

You make a very good point. Getting your car dialed in to where it suits your ability will result in a car that you can drive at 8 or 9/10's and run faster than you used to at full tilt. Being comfortable is a big factor. I'll be interested to see just how much faster you can get with a properly set up car and the same skills behind the wheel.

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by Vegas69

The tweaking was the part I enjoyed about my car more than anything except for the using. It's really incremental.

You make a very good point. Getting your car dialed in to where it suits your ability will result in a car that you can drive at 8 or 9/10's and run faster than you used to at full tilt. Being comfortable is a big factor. I'll be interested to see just how much faster you can get with a properly set up car and the same skills behind the wheel.

I just got a reminder that you're never too old.... My little buddy Pierre (77) just called and came over and loaded up my air driven hydraulic transmission jack.. He's working on his '57 Chevy project which is ready to go to upholstery next week.

What Ron was/is helping with is exactly as you describe.... getting the car "right" -- so it's easier and more fun to drive... which resulted - with the same loose nut behind the wheel - in dropping 12 seconds per lap. Same everything else except tire pressures got right - which made the car feel and grip better - raising confidence and consistency in the corners... and getting the brake more balanced (using his ears - and temps - and questioning me).

The CAR is capable of running 2.04's.... The DRIVER might be - but doesn't care. I just want to run 2.10's like Charley does all day long.

What I found -- and the more I watch the one and only video I took during the weekend is -- I can catch the guys at any time... even if I let 'em go I can reel 'em back in within a couple turns.... but what I was noticing is that the brakes just weren't working well... I'd have to pump 'em to get the pedal back... or I'd experience rear wheel hop if I jumped on 'em etc. SO that's what we're working on now for Sonoma.

After that - we'll work on installing a full floater - Race rotors (rears are but the fronts are performance street)... and, for safety - the larger race size bearings. And of course some shocks or shock adjustments. Most likely this will be a replacement upgrade item. Then I'm done. It's just get these few things dialed in and then just keep getting some seat time.

I was talking to DBasher the other day when he came over -- and I said that I'd like to do more track days... BUT -- big BUTT -- I wasn't really comfortable going out on my own without all my "support group" like Charley and Mike and Chet etc around to lean on. Once the car is right - and I know what is what... Then I can become more independent and start running at different tracks etc. So that's the goal.

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by Vegas69

The tweaking was the part I enjoyed about my car more than anything except for the using. It's really incremental.

I didn't TWEAK because I don't - or didn't / still learning - what to tweak and when - and what difference that makes etc. THUS RON SUTTON school of tweaks.

[Ron Sutton]

Originally Posted by Vegas69

The tweaking was the part I enjoyed about my car more than anything except for the using. It's really incremental.

You make a very good point. Getting your car dialed in to where it suits your ability will result in a car that you can drive at 8 or 9/10's and run faster than you used to at full tilt. Being comfortable is a big factor. I'll be interested to see just how much faster you can get with a properly set up car and the same skills behind the wheel.

Todd's always on track.

Greg's goal is to have more fun. So that has been my focus. We're making the car work better for how he wants to drive it. Not once at the track did I say to Greg ... "use more track", "change your line", "drive in deeper," etc. We're just focused on on increasing the driver's sensory input, being smooth with all the driver input mechanisms to keep the tires "happy" & enjoying the time on track more.

My goal with the car is to optimize it so it's consistent, predictable & doesn't doing anything surprisingly evil. It has before and it's not much fun driving fast on a real race track with other cars around you if you're not confident in the car. Scaring yourself trying to keep up with the pack is not fun.

It is a LOT of fun if you can drive your hot rod at 9/10 lap after lap with all the adrenaline and no peed pants. I believe the fun is from driving fast, passing some cars, hanging with the group you want to on track and having a sense of accomplishment that you did it. The fast laps in the 2:08 to 2:10 range are icing on the cake. For track day events, lap times are something to BS about in the pits ... or the forum ... but the fun is on track.

I've seen cars at the track that are so ill handling, if you drive them at the pace of the other cars, you're trying to save your life almost every corner. That's not fun. The way the car was handling before ... with lower tire grip & 40/60 F'd up brake balance... if you tried to drive it to a 2:08-2:10 you would have spun off track back end first. The set-up simply wasn't capable. Charley ran 2:09's & 2:10's every session like clockwork. That looked fun. With the stuff we improved at T-Hill, now Greg can run with Charley occasionally without killing himself.

We're only making small changes before Sonoma. Better brake balance, so Greg can use the brakes more & tires that come in quicker. That car has more speed potential in it, but my focus will be to make it easier & more fun to drive.

[GregWeld]

I know we've jacked Gaetano's thread.... but as long as he doesn't care (hasn't texted me that I'm a butthead YET!) I'll post one more.... Besides that - he's out at Thunderhill running Time Trials today... So doesn't even know yet!! LOL


Part of MY GOAL is to help others learn from what I'm doing. Yes - what Todd said is true... I now have a professional in my crew... OKAY -- So what! Yeah I can afford to do that.

Here's what OTHERS can learn from this... which is mostly why I'm pursuing the discussion in the way that I am. HAVING THAT EXPERT ADVICE is so friggin' beneficial for so many GREAT REASONS.... like NOT WRECKING... HAVING MORE FUN.... KEEPING UP WITH THE PACK -- WHILE NOT DRIVING HARD...

This is why I've said many times -- that this is the BEST MONEY I'VE EVER SPENT ON A CAR. I had most all the parts.... what was missing was all the parts working well together. That takes (as I've now learned) a lot of info!

What RON SUTTON has brought to the track is the expertise to be able to read - and discuss - and diagnose QUICKLY what is going on... and how to fix it. In one stinking weekend HE knocked off 12 SECONDS per lap!

How much money do you guys want to piss away buying this or trying that or upgrading this or that -- only to find out you didn't gain much. AND YOU'RE DRIVING YOUR ASS OFF OVER YOUR HEAD...

Some measurements - a little discussing - some THOUGHT PROCESS to the driver before going out... so I could actually think about what Ron had asked of me... and BINGO! Car is more fun - faster - easier... less abusive to parts. WTF is not to like about that scenario?

Is it "expensive"?? Yeah - I guess - relatively.... But where I'm going with this is -- the sport is "expensive" doing nothing! Tires - brakes - wheels - motors - transmissions... shocks... ALL THAT STUFF is expensive... YET we don't think twice about it because it's all the cool stuff! AND WE WANT IT.

So where I went was --- bring in a PRO that's going to make my time and expense WORTH IT. Worth it - is MORE FUN - EASIER - Less abuse... OVER A VERY LONG TIME... so I "budgeted" this year to bring Ron in -- get squared away quickly and efficiently and be able to then move on. What I'm learning will transfer to any car - any track - any time - hot day - cold day - light car - heavy car... big motor or 1.8 liter Toyota.

I look at it as how much more fun and dialed in my car will be -- so I can go to the track and concentrate on my line and enjoyment

Originally Posted by Ron Sutton

Todd's always on track.

Greg's goal is to have more fun. So that has been my focus. We're making the car work better for how he wants to drive it. Not once at the track did I say to Greg ... "use more track", "change your line", "drive in deeper," etc. We're just focused on on increasing the driver's sensory input, being smooth with all the driver input mechanisms to keep the tires "happy" & enjoying the time on track more.

My goal with the car is to optimize it so it's consistent, predictable & doesn't doing anything surprisingly evil. It has before and it's not much fun driving fast on a real race track with other cars around you if you're not confident in the car. Scaring yourself trying to keep up with the pack is not fun.

It is a LOT of fun if you can drive your hot rod at 9/10 lap after lap with all the adrenaline and no peed pants. I believe the fun is from driving fast, passing some cars, hanging with the group you want to on track and having a sense of accomplishment that you did it. The fast laps in the 2:08 to 2:10 range are icing on the cake. For track day events, lap times are something to BS about in the pits ... or the forum ... but the fun is on track.

I've seen cars at the track that are so ill handling, if you drive them at the pace of the other cars, you're trying to save your life almost every corner. That's not fun. The way the car was handling before ... with lower tire grip & 40/60 F'd up brake balance... if you tried to drive it to a 2:08-2:10 you would have spun off track back end first. The set-up simply wasn't capable. Charley ran 2:09's & 2:10's every session like clockwork. That looked fun. With the stuff we improved at T-Hill, now Greg can run with Charley occasionally without killing himself.

We're only making small changes before Sonoma. Better brake balance, so Greg can use the brakes more & tires that come in quicker. That car has more speed potential in it, but my focus will be to make it easier & more fun to drive.

[Vegas69]

This is some of the best advice that's ever been written on this forum. What's the old saying, "Make the best of what you've got".

It's all in the details. Plus, it will be more fun to out run guys with MORE car. Like Dave and Gaetano.

[Sieg]

Considering the amount of time energy and money spent vs the actual number of "hot" laps you get in two days, being properly prepared can significantly increase your percentage of hot laps. Having the right tire for your car and driving style may deliver the largest increase of all.

Being a newb at T-Hill to auto events and only having motorcycle events to compare against, what I observed was:

• Cars require significantly more equipment, size of trailers, tools and accessories, spare parts, etc.
  
• Fuel and tire expenses are at least 5x's
  
• Higher maintenance due to wearing out parts such as brake pads, bearings, and oil change volume.
  
• Percentage of good laps is significantly less due to traffic and passing restrictions.
  
• The actual number of laps on track in a session is less due to staging time. Bikes pack up tight and get out fast. When you only have 20 minutes per session every one counts. For comparison bike events usually get 7 sessions per day at T-Hill.

Anything you can do to increase your hot laps adds to the enjoyment factor per dollar.

FWIW - I estimate the two meatball flags reduced my total laps by 15%.

A properly prepared car with happy tires equal a happy driver come Sunday afternoon!

[GregWeld]

Originally Posted by Vegas69

This is some of the best advice that's ever been written on this forum. What's the old saying, "Make the best of what you've got".

It's all in the details. Plus, it will be more fun to out run guys with MORE car. Like Dave and Gaetano.

The plan is to have the car be capable of 2.05's -- and run 2.09's.... on cruise mode... Then pass those two fat tired big motor'd pigs like they're chained to the K wall.

They'll spend all afternoon under a hot car dialing two clicks here and letting out half piss of air... while I sit in my chair drinking tonics.


HA!!

[fleetus macmullitz]