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  #121  
Old 03-12-2021, 01:46 PM
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Great news Ken, projects moving now.
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  #122  
Old 03-12-2021, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiffav8 View Post
Most excellent! Who’s doing the tune for you?

Either Nickey Chicago or ASSC Racing.......

Ken
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  #123  
Old 03-20-2021, 02:05 AM
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Exclamation Brake Proportioning

Curious, you went through the trouble of yanking the inner fender well out so as to rework the brake lines. Is there any particular reason why you didn't take the opportunity to ditch the non adjustable OE block style proportioning valve and install a knob or lever type of inline proportioning valve to allow full adjustment of your front to rear brake bias?

With any modified vehicle, it is critically important to be able to adjust your front to rear bias to insure proper braking actions, regardless of whether it is a disc / drum or disc / disc system. Even changes in tires, springs, shocks, and suspension require retuning the brake bias to achieve safe, full, well rounded, thoroughly tested braking performance. As with most muscle cars, there is typically a sizeable increase of the amount of rubber in the rear, where you now have much more traction to work with. Since there is more traction in the rear, you can usually up tune the amount of rear braking activity. If you have too much front brake activity and not enough rear brake activity, the front wheels will lock before the rear brakes come up to pressure resulting in a loss of ability to steer the vehicle. Conversely, over active rear braking will cause the tail end of the vehicle to come around on you during hard braking. The installation of a hydroboost system, especially along with upscale front brakes, can produce such incredible amounts of braking power that chassis weight shift during harsh stops brings a complete change to the vehicle's proportioning needs. Most all adjustable proportioning valves are capable of dialing back up to 57% of rear brake activity, or adjust all the way up to 100% full pressure to the rear brakes. Note that all scenarios, regardless of the type of proportioning, always allow full power to the front brakes.

Leaving a block style combination / proportioning valve in place means that you have to take what you get for results, whether they happen to be in the ball park or not. This to me is like the installation of a carburetor and / or fuel injection system, along with a distributor that has zero adjustment, and then hoping the engine runs right. I can't imagine anybody accepting that, yet so many people do about the same thing by not introducing an adjustable brake proportioning valve into their modified vehicles. Will it stop? Of course. But will it stop safely and predictably in the shortest possible distance from speed? Maybe you will get lucky to find the preset proportioning is in the basic ball park. If not, you may have to yank that fender well back out and rework the brake lines again to make the change to an adjustable arrangement. If you do end up having to do that, at least it will also look considerably cleaner with that block removed from under the master cylinder.

Again, just curious, as it struck me odd to see you go through all the trouble of reworking the brake lines, yet leaving the block in place.
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  #124  
Old 03-20-2021, 08:15 AM
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It's not a stock proportioning valve....... It's set-up for 4 wheels disc brakes....

Ken
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  #125  
Old 03-21-2021, 05:27 AM
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Default Brake proportioning

FYI - I understand that it is a disc / disc combination valve you have there. It may have been in the zone for your previous combo as part of a matched braking package, but it is going to be a crap shoot now as to how it handles the changes to the new front disc upgrade, along with now being hydroboost powered. Here is the statement in the Wilwood instructions from the brake kit you installed:



Most disc / disc block style proportioning blocks like you have limit back pressures to the rear brakes too much, as the engineering inside of them are purposely designed that way to make sure the rear end doesn't possibly come around on you during strong braking. The problem is that they are always detuned to the point of having the rear brakes do approximately 20-25% less than what they really should be doing, especially if you have good amount of tire size back there. The idea behind that thinking is that it is considered less dangerous for your front brakes to lock up before the rear brakes would. With this internal preset tuning, you essentially lose your ability to steer the vehicle with the front brakes locked up, but at least the rear of the vehicle doesn't try to come around on you. That's how these are calibrated. In a matched set of brakes front / rear, this may end up being somewhat in the zone, but now you have changed that by putting stronger front brakes into the scenario, but did not put the matching set of Wilwood brakes in the rear. Having a matched set of front and rear brakes provides the initial proper front to rear balance by providing appropriately sized caliper pistons, pad compounds, and rotor diameters. Mixing brake combos of new upscale brakes up front while retaining the old rear discs from a different package screws this balance completely up. The reality is that this now results in the rear brakes actually doing even less than they used to, and now there is nothing you can do about it save for following up with the installation of considerably more aggressive pad compounds in the rear, swapping in calipers with larger piston sizes, or ideally following up with an upgrade to the Wilwood specified matching rear brake kit. That's why an adjustable proportioning valve should have been installed instead of retaining the non adjustable block style proportioning valve, as you could have simply tweaked the setting around to adjust for the mismatch of front to rear brakes you now currently have. Having the front to rear brake bias tuned in just right is typically worth about 25 feet less stopping distance from 70 MPH, which can be the difference between smashing your car or not.

Next, take a look at this image of your front brake kit:



What you see is a machined rotor in this image. This isn't stated in the instructions other than to say this brake kit is to be installed by a person qualified, experienced, and competent in the installation and maintenance of disc brakes. That very wide and general statement doesn't specifically say this, but the image shows what it should look like once installed. What am I referring to? 2 piece rotor designs will always have some run out, even if the bolts are very carefully torqued in proper sequence. This means that the rotors need to be put onto a brake lathe and a light cut be performed to insure that any runout is removed before final installation, especially in scenarios like this brake package that have fixed / non floating caliper designs. I have never seen a two piece rotor design that has zero runout in it, typically having to machine off anywhere from 15-25 thousandths to get them trued to prevent brake pulsation. A person qualified, experienced, and competent in the installation and maintenance of disc brakes knows that these rotors must be machined before road use is attempted.

Additionally, and very importantly, while that black coating on your rotors may look cool, it really is a pestilence if not machined off of the friction areas before road use. If this coating is not removed, the pads will have to wear through it, initially causing the braking to be WAY grabby and overly aggressive. We get tech calls from customers complaining that their braking actions are undriveable - like an ON / OFF switch being too grabby to drive. We ask them if their brakes at the wheels are brand new, and if the rotors are coated, and they always say yes. We then inform them that this coating was to be machined off prior to running the brakes, and that this coating is now leaving unwanted deposits on the brake pads which leads to grabbing, along with heavy brake pulsation until all of the coating is worn off by the pads. The bad news there is that the coating doesn't wear off evenly, smearing around leaving a considerable amount of TV (thickness variation). When this is happening, you will see uneven patches of black and silver on the rotor friction areas. Some get lucky by taking the vehicle out for a heavy pound session to wear off the coating, but most end up having to pull their rotors back off and have them machined. When this happens, we also recommend the pads have a few thousandths milled off of the friction areas to remove the burnished in coating out of them, or replace the pad set entirely...

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  #126  
Old 03-21-2021, 07:46 AM
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Thanks for your advice......If there is an issue I will definitely take your advice and change things around !!!!!


Ken
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  #127  
Old 03-30-2021, 06:18 AM
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Got the car finished and took it to ASSC for tuning........ Need to get the front end aligned, get the A/C system charged and it seems the steering box has a slight leak...... Might need to replace it...... Just about there.... Brakes are Awsum......



Last edited by kwhizz; 03-30-2021 at 06:02 PM.
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  #128  
Old 03-30-2021, 08:51 AM
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Very nice and congrats on getting it finished. Very classy looking and well done!!
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  #129  
Old 03-30-2021, 04:14 PM
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Congratulations getin her done! That's a nice looking car. let us know how the tune goes.
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  #130  
Old 03-31-2021, 05:54 PM
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Got the car back from Larry at ASSC today...... After tuning it made basically 398 H.P and 394 ft pounds of torque........Perfect balance ........ Front end alignment, A/C system recharged and new Tires next week


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